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When is a crash a Crash?

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  • Shadow Shack
    replied
    Depending on what #3 should be interpreted as, I had all four with three of them in one incident.

    The first involved slipping in ice at a stop (hard to believe but we get that here thanks to lawn irrigation and the occasional sub-32┬║ pre-sunrise temps), I rode away from that one and it remains unreported to insurance & authorities.

    The other involved sliding with my foot trapped between the bear trap case guard and footpeg into the back of a stopped car. I am convinced had the bike not enjoyed the additional momentum of a trapped rider siding with it, it could have stopped short of the car and thus been a single vehicle incident. Anyways the bear trap resulted in a dislocated hip and shoulder which I had looked at a couple of days later. I rode the bike home sans back brake since the bear trap folded over the peg & pedal (only to later discover the handlebars came loose as well, pivoting to and fro), thus resulting in a self-loaded pick-up ride to the dealer for an estimate on the damaged parts (which I ended up buying at an aftermarket OEM outlet, pre-internet days). It too was unreported, although I will happily report how useless crash bars/case guards really are since they caused far more damage to the bike (and rider) than what should never have happened had they not been equipped...a tale I will happily expand upon should anyone wish to hear the details.

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  • Trials
    replied
    I totally agree with offering assistance wherever possible, but wouldn't you feel like crap if you just finished pulling somebody out of the ditch and then caught a faint whiff of alcohol as they drove off.

    Life can get complicated real quick like that sometimes

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  • Sorg67
    replied
    Just be careful about doing anything more than not letting someone die. If somebody is not going to die anytime soon, usually better to wait for the professional.

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  • CaptCrash
    replied
    Originally posted by Sorg67 View Post
    Of course, any law that relies on somebody's interpretation of "reasonable" can get you into trouble.

    Interesting also that criminal law requires proof beyond a "reasonable" doubt. But civil law requires only a preponderance of evidence. First on the scene, only one there, who is to say what the circumstances were that would define what a reasonable person would do.
    I would only offer that a reasonable person wouldn't stand there and watch someone die....

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  • Sorg67
    replied
    Originally posted by CaptCrash View Post
    I believe all states have some sort of "Good Samaritan" law. Basically, what would a "reasonable person" do?
    Of course, any law that relies on somebody's interpretation of "reasonable" can get you into trouble.

    Interesting also that criminal law requires proof beyond a "reasonable" doubt. But civil law requires only a preponderance of evidence. First on the scene, only one there, who is to say what the circumstances were that would define what a reasonable person would do.

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  • Darwin
    replied
    There have been lengthy discussions on Good Samaritan laws. Based on those discussions, I believe most people who aren't acting in a "professional capacity" are well protected. Not to say there couldn't be a law suit. Make your own calls and live with the consequences (Hmm... might be a good analogy to riding a motorcycle?). I ride... and I help. See someone who needs assistance - I stop and do what I can. Part of knowing what you can't (or shouldn't) do is an important part of rendering aid. I'm not going to open an airway by administering a tracheotomy. But I'll administer CPR... and most importantly, I'll make sure the scene is safe and take efforts to alert 911 immediately.

    As for arguing over what's a crash - I understand there was an artificial difference set up by at least one organization overseeing training. That was a convenient way to determine if more paperwork (and time) needed to be spent. Can't tell you how many discussions amongs RiderCoaches there were as to when it was a tip over and when it was a crash. Some said not moving and no injury. Some said no injury (ok if bike was moving). Some said speeds less than 2 mph and care refused. Some said no significant injury (whatever that means). California defines a legal requirement to report an accident when damage exceeds $750.

    Kind of reminds me about the argument for whether food is safe to eat after falling on the floor. 3 (or 5) second rule? Really - does anyone believe this? I think many motorcyclists adhere to something similar - maybe if no one sees it or I can ride it away, then it somehow won't count as a crash. And does anyone really believe it wasn't a crash if something other than parts that were designed to be in contact with the ground end up touching asphalt? (OK - maybe dirt is different... right? ) Not really important - you could have a tip over, a drop, a lay down, a horizontal nap. On the showroom floor, it doesn't matter what your excuse is for however you define a "crash" - they expect you to pay for any damage no matter how the bike ends up on the ground.

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  • CaptCrash
    replied
    I believe all states have some sort of "Good Samaritan" law. Basically, what would a "reasonable person" do? I arrived at the scene of a crash on Skyline in the SF Bay and it was a seriously 1% gentleman and he was laid out on the pavement quite upset. His bike was on its side puking gas and I went over to right it and he taught me a few new combinations of curse words, I answered that the bike was puking gas and righting it was the appropriate thing to do. He begrudgingly agreed. (And within 10 minutes was having a smoke waiting for an ambulance). This was before cellphones and someone ran off to Alice's to call an ambulance. Now, with the advent of instant personal comms I wonder if he would have declined having the authorities notified and opted for private transport and care...

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  • AlwaysLearnin
    replied
    Originally posted by Sorg67 View Post
    When I took a first aid class a while back, they spent a lot of time discussing the legal trouble you can get into trying to help someone. Pull someone out of a burning car and fail to handle a spinal injury properly and they end up paralyzed you can get sued even if you saved their life.

    In some places there are some good Samaritan rules to protect people who are doing their best to help. If you get some training, you can be held to a higher standard. In some places, if you have training you can be obligated to help. It made me wonder whether I really wanted to be certified. I also felt the two day certification course afforded me very little training. Mostly, call 911 and do not do much unless you have to. CPR if the guy is not breathing. How to use the AED devices, although they are pretty idiot proof. Don't move the guy unless you have to (get him out of a dangerous situation if necessary otherwise wait for EMT).

    Training was really was more about what not to do than what to do.

    When we had a boat and I took a lot of friends out, I considered getting my captains license to make sure I was doing my best to operate the boat safely. I was advised that could be a bad idea. As just some shmo with a boat I am held to a lower standard than a licensed captain, even if I am not charging anybody for the ride.

    Crazy legal quagmire.
    This is where the legal system (and predatory lawyers who are allowed to advertise and encourage people to sue) has gotten us. All of this "if you have been injured by blah blah blah you may be entitled to compensation" bull crap advertising should not be allowed. Especially since a decent portion of the money obtained goes back to the lawyers (I'm sure they're not doing this out of the goodness of their hearts). These ads for "being harassed by collection calls" are in the same category. Granted there are people who legitimately get shoved into a bad situation where they would normally pay their bills, but just can't for whatever reason. Those people deserve a break. But most people being "harassed" by collection calls are getting them because they just live above their means or refuse to pay their bills.

    Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

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  • atomicalex
    replied
    I have had a few tipovers. I do not count those as crashes. Those are usually just stupidity making itself obvious.

    I've had one actual "crash", on the track. Probably a highside in a turn, ended up in the sand and the bike needed new levers. I needed some rest and my right ├╝inky needed to grow about 1cm2 of skin back. I was bruised up good, but otherwise completely ok.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sorg67
    replied
    Originally posted by Trials View Post
    Be careful and aware of the potential consequences before offering to play tow truck for somebody else.
    When I took a first aid class a while back, they spent a lot of time discussing the legal trouble you can get into trying to help someone. Pull someone out of a burning car and fail to handle a spinal injury properly and they end up paralyzed you can get sued even if you saved their life.

    In some places there are some good Samaritan rules to protect people who are doing their best to help. If you get some training, you can be held to a higher standard. In some places, if you have training you can be obligated to help. It made me wonder whether I really wanted to be certified. I also felt the two day certification course afforded me very little training. Mostly, call 911 and do not do much unless you have to. CPR if the guy is not breathing. How to use the AED devices, although they are pretty idiot proof. Don't move the guy unless you have to (get him out of a dangerous situation if necessary otherwise wait for EMT).

    Training was really was more about what not to do than what to do.

    When we had a boat and I took a lot of friends out, I considered getting my captains license to make sure I was doing my best to operate the boat safely. I was advised that could be a bad idea. As just some shmo with a boat I am held to a lower standard than a licensed captain, even if I am not charging anybody for the ride.

    Crazy legal quagmire.

    Leave a comment:


  • Chench53
    replied
    Two crashes for me. Once when I went "alongside the wall" and the other in WV, on a group BB.com (predecessor to BBO) event on a turn, gravel, didn't look thru the turn, blah blah. Both were rider error. Some muscle aches, but otherwise I was OK.

    Neither reported, I rode away from both, only minor fixes needed on the bike.

    Bobble drops? I have had a few of those!!

    Gerry

    Leave a comment:


  • Trials
    replied
    Originally posted by asp125 View Post
    I have to disregard my off road crashes, because well, that's part of off road riding...
    I like that rule

    Leave a comment:


  • asp125
    replied
    I have to disregard my off road crashes, because well, that's part of off road riding. Also because how do you report non-insured off road vehicles vs plated dual sports?

    On pavement, I've lowsided on a public road requiring a ride in the ambulance (a crash), and tipped over in parking lots (not a crash). I've also lowsided at the track (not a crash, since it didn't involve a registered bike even though I went the hospital). I've also non-reported a lowside on the road because the damage to the bike allowed me to nurse it back home minus a broken shifter.

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  • Trials
    replied
    Up here it's illegal to pull somebody out of a ditch or to fail in reporting an accident but I'm pretty sure if you or they ride out under their own power it's a grey area. Be careful and aware of the potential consequences before offering to play tow truck for somebody else.

    If you simply fall over without injury or damage is that a crash? well kinda, but are you about to go out of your way to report it as being an accident, I highly doubt it. If you hit a deer or other animal on the highway with your car is that a crash? well kinda, but are you about to stay at the scene of the accident and call the police to report it :/ if you plan to make an insurance claim it might be a very wise move.

    I believe the laws in most places require you to remain at the scene of an accident and report the incident any time there is damage to your vehicle or to personal property, but if there was zero damage, that's kinda like the tree that fell in the woods and nobody heard it
    just keep swimming

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  • CaptCrash
    replied
    For me it's one of those things that skews the data. I think rider intentionally refuse to report and that means the reports tend to be only the most damaging of incidents; those that require EMS or bike retrieval. I was on the bay side of Highway 84 in the SF Bay Area once and I remember stopping my Pop's pick up, digging out the rope in the back seat, and helping pull what appeared to be a GSXR up the slope, out of the bushes, and having the rider telling everyone helping "Hurry up! I can hear the Cops!" because he wanted to (and did) ride away without a report. I just don't have any idea how to gather that info.

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