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Thread: Mini Ape Hanger Angle

  1. #11
    Flirting With The Redline 8000 Posts! Trials's Avatar
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    :I knew you'd catch on fast once you thought about sailboats

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sorg67 View Post
    Experiment - I am going to adjust the handlebars on my bicycle and see if it is easier to ride no handed.

    Look Mom.... No hands..... crash.....
    no handed you might as well take the bars off, closest analogy would be how do you steer a sailboat that has no rudder

  3. #13
    Flirting With The Redline 2000 Posts! Sorg67's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trials View Post
    closest analogy would be how do you steer a sailboat that has no rudder
    Steering a sailboat without the rudder is a skills drill. With a standard single mast sloop rig (main sail and head sail) you let out the main sail and sheet in the the head sail to fall off the wind, sheet in the main sail and let out the head sail head up into the wind.

    With really nimble small monohulls some people can do this really well. Some people claim to be able to tack a sailboat without the rudder. I have never seen it done. But in theory, you would start a bit off the wind, sheet in the main sail quickly enough to create enough momentum to get through the wind then let out the main sail and sheet in the head sail to pull the boat far enough off the wind to sail.

    Most of my sailing experience is on catamarans. Much more difficult to steer with the sails on a catamaran.
    Last edited by Sorg67; 04-30-2018 at 09:23 AM.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trials View Post
    no handed you might as well take the bars off,
    Is that really true? Seems like the weight of the handle bars just sitting there would have an impact on the balance of the steering.

    Do I take this to mean that the positioning of the handle bars has not impact on the rake and trail? The rake and trail is defined strictly by the geometry of the forks / frame?

    If that is so, then what are the physics at work that allow the positioning of the handlebars to have an impact on the nimbleness of the bike? Leverage?

    The more I think about it, the more I think the new positioning of the handle bars on the Harley has a feel that is similar to what I would expect from a bike with less trail.

    I have a similar feel to result from tire inflation. Under inflated tires = heavy steering feel.

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  6. #16
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    Yup, that is it.

    However, the part she describes is not that difficult. Except that the weight positioning dynamics are not the same on a catamaran as on a monohull.

    Getting the boat to head up and bear off is not that hard. What is hard is getting the boat to head up with enough momentum to get all the way through the wind so you can tack.

  7. #17
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    The rudderless steering dynamic she is describing only relates to the steering head part of the motorcycle as I see it, but I thought it works towards understanding the effect of rake and trail in the motorcycle forks. The rest of the bike actually relates well to other things happening on a sailboat and yes, monohull displacement or mono-foil type is closer to a motorcycles single track dynamic.
    ... wheelbase relates to length of your waterline, track is the distance between your keel and the rudder path (leverage) handlebars are your tiller-bar the motor is your mast etc. etc.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trials View Post
    Shadow has his bikes set up for power steering, his are way out there, but it would also be a heck of a big nose wheelie to put him over those bars and his feet are well braced way out in front like in a car.
    ... extreme rake and wheelbase has the effect of barely steering at all so he basically has highly responsive slow steering ?
    Not sure how to translate that but I can make a U-turn into the first/fast lane without a median on either bike without dropping a foot off the pegs. While neither bike is a canyon carver, I can still take curves at or above posted speed limits too.

    The Shadow is actually more responsive than the Rebel, it has a shorter trail dimension at 6½" next to the Rebel chop's 8.1" trail --- although stock Shadows have considerably longer trail dimensions at the same 6½" compared to the Rebel's 4.3" --- the Shadow has some fine German TÜV engineering in that aftermarket front end which retains stock trail dimensions, the Rebel got the old school cut & weld treatment which, with stock trees, creates a longer trail.
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  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Shack View Post
    Not sure how to translate that but I can make a U-turn into the first/fast lane without a median on either bike without dropping a foot off the pegs....
    you measure a bikes turning circle in inches or centimetres not highway lanes just push it around in a full tock turn circle and then tape measure the diameter of the track it leaves on the ground. Guessing your bikes turning circle is now larger then a stock bikes turning circle and for the same amount of steering input compared to pre modification your bike now turns less.

  10. #20
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    Well that goes without saying. The point was I can still make a one lane U-turn with them, something a lot of "accomplished" riders have a difficult time doing with a stock bike.
    Sent from your mom's phone
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    Ride Safe, Chop Safer
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    "Motorcycles are not unsafe. However, they are extremely unforgiving of inattention, incompetence, ignorance, and stupidity."
    Support your FLIBS (Friendly Local Independent Bike Shop)
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    3500cc worth of Honda: http://shadow-shack.20m.com


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