Page 7 of 7 FirstFirst ... 567
Results 61 to 70 of 70

Thread: High-Risk - Low-Risk

  1. #61
    Flirting With The Redline 2000 Posts! Sorg67's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Orlando, FL
    Posts
    2,353
    You have related your 1974 Dallas story before and I think about that every time I feel the urge to roll off the throttle in a turn. That has helped me.

    I agree that trusting your tires to hold a turn is counter intuitive and learned. I have to fight the urge to roll off the throttle when I get into a turn to hot. Knowing that staying on the throttle spreads the cornering load between the tires and increases available traction helps me to resist the urge to come off the throttle in these situations. But I think that is different from understanding the physics of counter-steering.

  2. #62
    Flirting With The Redline alba's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    322
    In normal riding I don't think about the mechanics of counter steering at all, it is purely instinctual. But if I come round a corner and find myself face to face with an oncoming truck I suspect all those fine skills will be like dust in the wind. Unfortunately our cavemen ancestors didn't find instinctual counter steering a useful survival skill so I don't think you will have access to it when contemplating your impending death. If you are lucky your conscious mind will fight to take control and you will hear a small voice shouting "push left to go left!". That's why I think knowing what to do is important.

    If you were asked to walk across a 2 foot wide plank you would do it without thinking about it. Put that plank 300 feet in the air and suddenly it is a whole new ball game. The task is no more difficult, but suddenly something as instinctual as walking becomes very difficult and your conscious mind would have to take over and tell you to put one foot in front of another. That's why I think knowing what to do is important.

    Edit: I draw a big distinction between knowing what to do and understanding why it works. The understanding is an academic distraction for cold winter nights and internet forums. Knowing what to do is all part of riding.

  3. #63
    Senior Moderator We've stopped counting... subvetSSN606's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Ellettsville, IN
    Posts
    25,600
    Quote Originally Posted by alba View Post
    Edit: I draw a big distinction between knowing what to do and understanding why it works. The understanding is an academic distraction for cold winter nights and internet forums. Knowing what to do is all part of riding.

    THIS!!!

    In the end, regrets rarely come from things done, but from things not even tried.


  4. #64
    You would hardly be the first person who disagreed with me on something. After all I expect we come from very different backgrounds.

    Perhaps the most forming experience of mine was being trained to be a military pilot ... then training military pilots myself as well as flying in combat. My experiences from those have reinforced the value of both understanding and execution ... especially in the face of potentially paralyzing danger.
    The best thing you can buy for your motorcycle is gas.

  5. #65
    Flirting With The Redline 2000 Posts! Sorg67's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Orlando, FL
    Posts
    2,353
    Quote Originally Posted by alba View Post
    In normal riding I don't think about the mechanics of counter steering at all, it is purely instinctual. But if I come round a corner and find myself face to face with an oncoming truck I suspect all those fine skills will be like dust in the wind. Unfortunately our cavemen ancestors didn't find instinctual counter steering a useful survival skill so I don't think you will have access to it when contemplating your impending death. If you are lucky your conscious mind will fight to take control and you will hear a small voice shouting "push left to go left!". That's why I think knowing what to do is important..
    I see counter steering as a balance skill that is learned instinctually very easily. It is not something we are born with just something that comes very naturally and easily like other balance skills. Like any skill, it can be developed with practice.

    I believe that balance skills do not work well with conscious thought. They work on a feel and instinctual level. And I feel that when you are face to face with a truck, it is not the instinctual skills that disappear, this is the conscious skills so I would rather count on the instinctual skills because I have confidence that they will be there.

    Quote Originally Posted by alba View Post
    If you were asked to walk across a 2 foot wide plank you would do it without thinking about it. Put that plank 300 feet in the air and suddenly it is a whole new ball game. The task is no more difficult, but suddenly something as instinctual as walking becomes very difficult and your conscious mind would have to take over and tell you to put one foot in front of another. That's why I think knowing what to do is important..
    This is a great example, but one I interpret differently. If I were 300 feet up, it would be more difficult, but I would not try to consciously manipulate my balance, I would focus my eyes where I want to go. I would not think one foot in front of the other. I would use looking where I want to go and my balance skills would be on auto pilot. Just like when I turn, I will look through turn and my counter steering skills will be on auto pilot.

    I see counter steering as a balance skill and one I do not want my conscious mind interfering with. I see the best way to develop counter steering skill is with practice and pushing the comfort zone.

    Try standing on one leg and be aware of the foot your are standing on. You will feel it making continuous balancing adjustments on a completely unconscious level. You were born with this ability. You learned it naturally. If you move while you are standing on one leg, you will find your body makes automatic compensating movements to keep you from falling over. These are learned balancing skills we developed as we learned to walk.

    Quote Originally Posted by alba View Post
    Edit: I draw a big distinction between knowing what to do and understanding why it works. The understanding is an academic distraction for cold winter nights and internet forums. Knowing what to do is all part of riding.
    That is a valid distinction that I agree with. But I would keep the what to do part very simple. I like look and lean. I do not think it matters that you are actually counter steering. You body knows and if you keep your conscious out of it and you have practiced enough to develop the skill, your body will do just fine.
    Last edited by Sorg67; 04-14-2017 at 04:38 PM.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorg67 View Post
    I see counter steering as a balance skill that is learned instinctually very easily. It is not something we are born with just something that comes very naturally and easily like other balance skills. Like any skill, it can be developed with practice.

    I believe that balance skills do not work well with conscious thought. They work on a feel and instinctual level. And I feel that when you are face to face with a truck, it is not the instinctual skills that disappear, this is the conscious skills so I would rather count on the instinctual skills because I have confidence that they will be there. ...
    ...
    I see counter steering as a balance skill and one I do not want my conscious mind interfering with. I see the best way to develop counter steering skill is with practice and pushing the comfort zone.

    ...
    As I have pushed the envelope that has not been my experience.

    When I am riding near the threshold of control where my rear tire slides a little, I am very conscious in right turns that my right hand is both pushing the grip and adjusting the throttle even as lots of other inputs are coming in like my knee puck sliding on the track ... then in a left turn I am aware of the pressure I am exerting with my left hand on the grip while my right hand is still occupied with the throttle.

    I am very "conscious" of my control during this ... a little too much pressure or a bit too much throttle will put me on the pavement ... it's not "scary" it's just a fact ... because I've done that and bslid down the track in my leathers watching my bike slide beside me. I am also aware a little too little pressure and I'll run wide ...

    Now let's throw in an "awe crap..." the rider leading right in front of you goes down. It only lasts a micro second when "learning and understanding" kicks in ... you and him are in a corner and physics will clear both him and his bike out of your path to the outside of the curve ... most of the time. I've had that happen a few times ... it's all you can do to keep your "instincts" from grabbing a handful of brake the first couple of times.

    Ever be standing on one foot and had mortal danger suddenly and unexpectedly appear? Your "instinct" will be flight or fight. Motorcycling is not instinctual ... it is a learned activity and our instincts get in the way ... most of the time ... but especially when you need to do the right thing right this second or die ...
    The best thing you can buy for your motorcycle is gas.

  7. #67
    Flirting With The Redline 2000 Posts! Sorg67's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Orlando, FL
    Posts
    2,353
    Quote Originally Posted by OBX-RIDER View Post
    As I have pushed the envelope that has not been my experience.

    When I am riding near the threshold of control where my rear tire slides a little, I am very conscious in right turns that my right hand is both pushing the grip and adjusting the throttle even as lots of other inputs are coming in like my knee puck sliding on the track ... then in a left turn I am aware of the pressure I am exerting with my left hand on the grip while my right hand is still occupied with the throttle.

    I am very "conscious" of my control during this ... a little too much pressure or a bit too much throttle will put me on the pavement ... it's not "scary" it's just a fact ... because I've done that and bslid down the track in my leathers watching my bike slide beside me. I am also aware a little too little pressure and I'll run wide ... ...
    I would put this in a different category. At very high levels fine tuning skills with conscious thought may have an application. On the other hand I would still think steering would be feel oriented. I would rather have that on automatic pilot to free my brain to focus on what it has to.

    Quote Originally Posted by OBX-RIDER View Post
    Now let's throw in an "awe crap..." the rider leading right in front of you goes down. It only lasts a micro second when "learning and understanding" kicks in ... you and him are in a corner and physics will clear both him and his bike out of your path to the outside of the curve ... most of the time. I've had that happen a few times ... it's all you can do to keep your "instincts" from grabbing a handful of brake the first couple of times....
    I agree with the idea that instincts lead to grabbing a handful of brakes. I have previously acknowledged this point but it is a separate point. The decision to brake or turn is different from the question of how to turn.

    Quote Originally Posted by OBX-RIDER View Post
    Ever be standing on one foot and had mortal danger suddenly and unexpectedly appear? Your "instinct" will be flight or fight. Motorcycling is not instinctual ... it is a learned activity and our instincts get in the way ... most of the time ... but especially when you need to do the right thing right this second or die ...
    You are right that balancing is a learned skill. All skills are learned. The question is how best to learn. Do you go through a conscious deliberate process learning specific movements or do you create learning opportunities and let your instincts learn the skills naturally. I believe that natural instinctive learning is faster and more reliable for skills to which it applies. Instinctive learning is not the same as being born with an ability. The skills need to be developed. My belief is that counter steering is a skill that comes naturally through experience if you let. And if you learn it this way, it will be more reliable when you need it.

    And you are right that fear can throw you off balance. But for me keeping balanced is not about understanding the physical motions required to remain balanced. It is about keeping calm. Keeping your eye on the ball. Staying focused.

    I have tried balancing on one foot with my eyes open and closed. It is a lot harder with your eyes closed. For me the key to staying balanced is keeping my eyes open and focused.

    Resisting the urge to brake in a corner is not learned instinctively. Staying on the throttle in a corner is not learned instinctively. Many elements of motorcycling are not learned instinctively. But I believe that counter steering is one that is learned instinctively. I believe your example of Reg Pridmore is evidence. He was able to counter steer very effectively without even believing that it existed.

  8. #68
    Senior Moderator We've stopped counting... subvetSSN606's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Ellettsville, IN
    Posts
    25,600
    Whatever works for you...

    But I do suggest that should you ever find yourself in a right-hand turn a bit hotter than you meant to, and it scares you, that you push on that right bar, add some gas, and take that son-of-a-bitch like you meant to do it that way.

    You might say... lean more, add some gas, and take that son-of-a-bitch like you meant to do it that way.

    I submit that a vague understanding of exactly what will make you lean more is not quite as effective as knowing exactly what will make you lean more.

    Tom
    In the end, regrets rarely come from things done, but from things not even tried.


  9. #69
    Senior Moderator We've stopped counting... subvetSSN606's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Ellettsville, IN
    Posts
    25,600
    Again, understanding the physics of it is optional.
    In the end, regrets rarely come from things done, but from things not even tried.


  10. #70
    Flirting With The Redline 2000 Posts! Sorg67's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Orlando, FL
    Posts
    2,353
    Quote Originally Posted by subvetSSN606 View Post
    Whatever works for you...
    That is an important statement. We are all different

    Quote Originally Posted by subvetSSN606 View Post
    But I do suggest that should you ever find yourself in a right-hand turn a bit hotter than you meant to, and it scares you, ........ take that son-of-a-bitch like you meant to do it that way.
    I like that part.... kind of like OBX "trust your tires" Those kinds of thoughts will help me, I hope. We shall see some day.

    Quote Originally Posted by subvetSSN606 View Post
    I submit that a vague understanding of exactly what will make you lean more is not quite as effective as knowing exactly what will make you lean more.
    I have studied this a bit and practiced various levels of awareness and various techniques. I think at this point I have a solid conscious understanding of what will make me lean. But I think my unconscious has a much better understanding than my conscious. If I wreck in a turn, I would expect that it will be due to chickening out and decelerating not a lack of understanding of how to counter steer. I believe that reducing my risk of wrecking in a turn will come from practice. And I do not think my understanding of how to counter steer has helped me.

    Quote Originally Posted by subvetSSN606 View Post
    Again, understanding the physics of it is optional.
    On this we are in complete agreement. But I think getting into the physics is potentially damaging to new riders who are struggling. Keep it simple. Let them connect with their natural ability to learn balancing skills.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •