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Thread: Incident report & small rant

  1. #11
    Flirting With The Redline 6000 Posts! atomicalex's Avatar
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    Motorcycle accidents are 0.2% of the total ER visits. If half of the motorcyclists survive, 0.1% die.

    Medical mistakes in hospitals are 1% of deaths.

    Medical mistakes are ten times more likely to get you than motorcycle deaths in the overall population. Now of motorcycle riders versus the general population, that is probably a bit skewed as not all of the general population are motorcyclists.
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  2. #12
    Flirting With The Redline Mad Matt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phendric View Post
    Could the fact that my BIL is in a surgical ICU at a regional trauma center be causing some sort of bias?
    Sure. A fair statistic would be the number of motorcycle accident victims in that ICU compared to all the beds in all the hospitals in the region served by the trauma center.

    My wife is an ER doc. I'll see if I can get her to take a guess at how many motorcycle accident victims she sees.

  3. #13
    RiderCoach 5000 Posts!
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    Hopefully your BIL makes a full recovery.

    And it is normal to question your own riding once something like this happens.



    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Shack View Post
    FWIW, this could serve to nullify a lawsuit. More so if the car he was once behind stopped while he proceeded.
    Quote Originally Posted by phendric View Post
    Hey SS. How you been? Where do you get that last part? The portion of the CA VC that will be fought over is Section 21801...

    In CA, the two types of vehicle collisions that insurance companies almost automatically assign liability for are rear enders (the car following should have been paying attention) and left turns (driver should have waited until it was safe). In this case, the attorneys for the bus driver will try to prove that it was, indeed, safe for the bus to make the left turn, and that, once he had the right-of-way, the rider was at fault for not yielding. I'm sure they'll parade the driver's testimony that he didn't see my BIL...but I don't know how far that will get them...
    I'm not going to speak for SS but I think I know what he's getting at.

    Light is changing to red. Car is stopping because the driver feels there's plenty of room/time to safely stop for the impending red light.

    The bus driver is probably already in the intersection (beyond the painted stop line) and sees the car coming to a stop. Bus driver knows he needs to clear the intersection so he starts to go since traffic is stopping. Because oncoming traffic is slowing and the light is changing, bus driver assumes it's safe for him to make his left turn to clear out the intersection. Yes, obviously this was a bad assumption but do you see where this is going?

    BIL on the bike behind the car that the bus driver sees is stopping for the impending red light decides he can't be bothered stopping for the light, whips out from behind the car and accelerates into the bus.

    Witnesses all see that "crazy biker trying to beat the light" when there was no need to (other vehicle stopped successfully).





    As for stats regarding motorcycle accidents in the ER, just want to share one more thing....
    My son has had 4 or 5 ER visits that have been classified as "due to motorcycle accident." They were not street accidents. They were off-road accidents. Donovan's best friend also has 3 or so ER "motorcycle accidents" which were also off-road accidents. So just between these 2 boys, our county hospital has several "motorcycle accidents" on their records.

    So I think someone may be exaggerating a bit when stating that 20-40% of the beds are occupied by motorcycle crash victims.

  4. #14
    In a former life I was a senior claims adjuster ... meaning I handled the big money bodily injury cases. In this case I would definitely try to settle pre-trial. Yes the defence, if it comes to that, will try to make an issue of the other driver stopping ... but it ain't worth hanging your hat on. The bus driver is going to have to testify he turned on a yellow light ... giving the motorcyclist a yellow light too. And he is going to say "he didn't see the motorcyclist". It's virtually impossible to end any way except "failed to yield right of way" on the part of the bus driver.

    Contributory negligence law turns out to be a fine theory in law school .. while in the court room what actually goes down is comparative negligence. Ask any lawyer who has been there ...
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  5. #15
    An important lesson here is the Geometry of the situation. By moving to the right and passing the slowing vehicle the rider passed into its "visual shadow" meaning the rider actually blocked himself from "seeing and being seen". It's just a bad decision.
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  6. #16
    Flirting With The Redline 1000 Posts! phendric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by liberpolly View Post
    According to NHTSA, there were 93000 motorcycle injuries in 2012. Number of emergency department visits for unintentional injuries: 43.0 million. Motorcycles are not even a rounding error in overall statistics.
    Quote Originally Posted by liberpolly View Post
    440000 in hospitals alone.
    I see what you're getting at here: the chances of ending up in the hospital because of a non-motorcycle-related injury are much higher than the reverse. I figure there are lots of ways I can die or get hurt - what I tend to think about is my risk while on the road, relative to alternative forms of transportation.

    Quote Originally Posted by atomicalex View Post
    Motorcycle accidents are 0.2% of the total ER visits. If half of the motorcyclists survive, 0.1% die.

    Medical mistakes in hospitals are 1% of deaths.

    Medical mistakes are ten times more likely to get you than motorcycle deaths in the overall population. Now of motorcycle riders versus the general population, that is probably a bit skewed as not all of the general population are motorcyclists.
    And...there are numbers I'd like to be able to take to the bank. Source? I like to know where I'm quoting from if I'm gonna quote anything. (You're not a RiderCoach yet, Katherine? I'd have thought you would be, given how active you are here...)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad Matt View Post
    Sure. A fair statistic would be the number of motorcycle accident victims in that ICU compared to all the beds in all the hospitals in the region served by the trauma center.

    My wife is an ER doc. I'll see if I can get her to take a guess at how many motorcycle accident victims she sees.
    Good point. And, nice to know that there are riders out there who see what goes on in ERs and ICUs (either themselves or through family members) and still choose to ride.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sxy Rdr View Post
    [/snip]

    Light is changing to red. Car is stopping because the driver feels there's plenty of room/time to safely stop for the impending red light. The bus driver is probably already in the intersection (beyond the painted stop line) and sees the car coming to a stop. Bus driver knows he needs to clear the intersection so he starts to go since traffic is stopping. Because oncoming traffic is slowing and the light is changing, bus driver assumes it's safe for him to make his left turn to clear out the intersection. Yes, obviously this was a bad assumption but do you see where this is going?
    Yes, I do, but I'm wondering what basis in law the defense will have to try to dismiss. FYI, the video I saw only shows the intersection itself. It's clear that both vehicles entered the intersection after the light turned yellow, but before the light turned red. In fact, the light turned red right at the moment of impact.

    Anyhow, that's one side of the story...

    Quote Originally Posted by OBX-RIDER View Post
    In a former life I was a senior claims adjuster ... meaning I handled the big money bodily injury cases. In this case I would definitely try to settle pre-trial. Yes the defence, if it comes to that, will try to make an issue of the other driver stopping ... but it ain't worth hanging your hat on. The bus driver is going to have to testify he turned on a yellow light ... giving the motorcyclist a yellow light too. And he is going to say "he didn't see the motorcyclist". It's virtually impossible to end any way except "failed to yield right of way" on the part of the bus driver.

    Contributory negligence law turns out to be a fine theory in law school .. while in the court room what actually goes down is comparative negligence. Ask any lawyer who has been there ...
    ...and this is the other side of it. Don't know what contributory negligence vs. comparative negligence is (IANAL, obviously), but the bus driver made a statement to the police that he didn't see the rider. And we have the video. The information about him being behind a car in the center lane came from the driver of the car behind both of them who saw everything unfold.

    FYI, the attorney the in-laws have retained is a partner at a firm that deals only with personal injury complaints. I met him once, when he came to visit the hospital, and when he saw a diagram of what happened, he said "Well, there's going to be a big fight about this." It doesn't help that the bus was actually a tram, operated by a well-known (and well funded) school downtown. It's distasteful to me to see lawyers (by necessity) get involved, but it is what it is. And while I know 90%+ of personal injury cases get settled out of court, they have to be prepared as if they were going to end up there, just in case.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptCrash View Post
    An important lesson here is the Geometry of the situation. By moving to the right and passing the slowing vehicle the rider passed into its "visual shadow" meaning the rider actually blocked himself from "seeing and being seen". It's just a bad decision.
    Yes. I thought that something I read in Clair's recent thread about motorcycle safety is very relevant here - it doesn't matter if you were on the right or wrong side of the law if you're dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptCrash View Post
    Here's hoping for a complete recovery for all involved--the wounds are physical for him and emotional for those close by.
    Wanted to briefly come back to this. Nobody in the family wants to talk about the lack of movement in the legs, but if it turns out my BIL's paralyzed from the waist down - a possibility we have to be prepared for, given how long it's been, and given how few other things it could be - his wounds will become emotional as well.
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  7. #17
    Flirting With The Redline 1000 Posts! phendric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phendric View Post
    Don't know what contributory negligence vs. comparative negligence is...
    ...but Google helped me out. Contributory negligence refers to the negligence of an individual for his or her own safety, and is (was?) often brought into court as a counterclaim against the plaintiff.

    However, as you point out, California courts use a system of comparative negligence - a percentage of negligence/fault is assigned to each party involved in the collision. If the plaintiff is 50% or more at fault, they may get no damages at all. If less than 50%, that percentage gets taken out of the final settlement.
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  8. #18
    Flirting With The Redline 10,000 Posts! Shadow Shack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phendric View Post
    Hey SS. How you been?
    Doing good, again sorry that you came back with these circumstances.

    Where do you get that last part? The portion of the CA VC that will be fought over is Section 21801:



    In CA, the two types of vehicle collisions that insurance companies almost automatically assign liability for are rear enders (the car following should have been paying attention) and left turns (driver should have waited until it was safe). In this case, the attorneys for the bus driver will try to prove that it was, indeed, safe for the bus to make the left turn, and that, once he had the right-of-way, the rider was at fault for not yielding. I'm sure they'll parade the driver's testimony that he didn't see my BIL...but I don't know how far that will get them...
    I probably should have said "civil suit". I haven't been as sharp after waking since quitting caffeine.

    In a civil case the jury looks at what could have been done, i.e. was there a better way. When one vehicle stops and the other behind it swerves to go, there was definitely a better way as the vehicle behind also could have stopped.
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  9. #19
    Moderator/RiderCoach 10,000 Posts! Clair's Avatar
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    Dude, sorry about the circumstances but ... it's good to have you back!
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  10. #20
    Miles of smiles We've stopped counting... asp125's Avatar
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    Sorry to hear about your BIL, hope he makes a full recovery.
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