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AZridered
09-14-2011, 10:03 AM
Quoted from another thread: "Start with conservative brake markers, and ease them forward as the day progresses."

Does everyone do things this way? I use a nearly opposite method for braking: brakes-off points. I choose points where the main effort of braking must finish and really don't change much throughout the day.

I identify a point where I need to ease off the brakes and tip the bike in. That stays pretty constant, no matter what my speed. Depending on what is going on at a turn's approach, I may be braking very hard or only moderately. I may brake late and hard or I may brake earlier and with less force (especially when setting up an exit pass) but the point where I MUST be at tip-in speed remains the same.

Maybe this comes from racing older bikes that don't really like heavy trail braking?

shonuff
09-14-2011, 10:36 AM
I think it would depend on the level of competition. The guy who brakes last gets the line, assuming he can hold it, the other bike loses the drive or is run wide.

storysunfolding
09-14-2011, 03:21 PM
What was the context? Not a bad idea for someone just starting out on the track. Most people are unaware of how fast these little guys can stop or how much speed you can carry through a turn. A salty tracker or racer know most of the tracks in their area and will tend to emulate your style. When I try out a new track, I give it a conservative first lap before starting to push.

AZridered
09-14-2011, 03:57 PM
When I try out a new track, I give it a conservative first lap before starting to push.
I do pretty much the same thing, but I don't look for spots to begin braking (although I do look for key landmarks everywhere) but focus on where I need to tip in to hit the line that I want. Once I have this figured out, I can up the pace because I know where the braking stage needs to fade out. I find that no matter what pace I'm running, the turn in point does not change much. Where to begin braking varies depending on whether I have clear track or am trying to maneuver around someone.

On a clear track, the brakes on point will stay constant so long as my braking is consistent. Around other riders, it is not necessarily so neatly done.

LoDownSinner
09-14-2011, 05:26 PM
I was talking more about learning the track.

And yeah, I have a tendency to stay on the brakes till the apex in a lot of tighter turns.

storysunfolding
09-14-2011, 08:40 PM
I've never been a fan of the full ride by numbers crowd with cones at start/stop brake point, turn in, apex and exit. Takes the fun out and they never get a good flow

atomicalex
10-10-2011, 08:11 PM
I only know from cars, but I treat the braking sticks as the onset points. I start out beginning to brake at the first one, and then work to see how late I can begin my braking, so I can hold my line as long as possible. What is funny is when you have very fast vehicles coming off a straight, only to be passed in the braking zone by a slower one with big brakes that does not have to brake as soon and can grab the line. Dangerous, but effective. You really should not be having too much time between the end of the braking zone, your turn-in point, and your acceleration onset. Keeping those closely spaced and the weight/suspension geometry properly loaded can really improve your cornering... Who'da thunk?

I really love annoying Vipers with my wagon...... :shock: Also an inveterate trail-braker. Once you learn how to handle it, it's like crack.

re: the cones everywhere - that's ok for novices, but really. If you can't find the apex by yourself, do you really belong on the track outside of an instructed novice group? My worst instructing experience with cars was a guy who could not see a turn to save his soul. After five sessions, I was still not able to sign him off for solo. I handed him off to another instructor, who sent him home for the day five minutes into their first session together. I had thought something was wrong with me....

asp125
10-10-2011, 09:44 PM
I trail brake to the apex (in cars, not so much yet on bikes). As for braking markers, I use em as a general guide, not absolutes. At my local track, High Plains Raceway there are numbered brake markers on 5 of the 13 corners. The rest of the corners don't have numbered markers, a couple have pylons. so you can't just rely on them you must learn using landmarks or knowing the line. I use them more for turn-in markers. Brake to your turn-in (or trail it in), gas it out.

There are two schools of thought too ... (1) brake early but less, & carry more corner speed, or (2) brake late and hard, get on the throttle earlier. The former seems to work better on 250's and 600's the latter better for point and shoot liter bikes.

atomicalex
10-11-2011, 08:47 AM
There are two schools of thought too ... (1) brake early but less, & carry more corner speed, or (2) brake late and hard, get on the throttle earlier. The former seems to work better on 250's and 600's the latter better for point and shoot liter bikes.And there is physics to support that - the fastest corner speed achievable is not going to vary dramatically assuming similar lean angles can be reached and similar traction is available. The smaller bikes will not be as hot going in or out, so less braking is required to get to this speed. The bigger bikes will be hotter, so more braking is required. It becomes an issue of how much speed must be scrubbed, and how quickly (or shortly) that can happen.

OBX-RIDER
10-11-2011, 09:30 AM
What I find if I brake at the last possible moment is I over-brake...then spend half the corner trying to add back speed. So...I brake a little early at first trying to find the fastest speed I can take the corner at...then begin incrementally delaying the braking. The speed you have exiting the corner is more important than getting on the brakes a half moment earlier for lap times...

LoDownSinner
10-11-2011, 11:23 AM
It all depends on what your ultimate goal is. If it's to go kind of fast and enjoy track days, then easing off the brakes once you've established your corner speed is perfectly acceptable. You can have a lot of fun and go fairly quickly

But, as Ed Bargy says, wide open throttle time wins races.

Let's let X represent the maximum speed a given motorcycle is capable of carrying at the apex of a turn.

The less time you spend at X, the lower your lap times will be. If you get to X 20 feet prior to the apex, someone achieving that speed at 10 feet from the apex will have a quicker lap time. Someone who can do it consistently through established markers, be they cones, marks on the track, whatever, will be consistently faster than someone who rides by the seat of their pants.

The best racers will be heard to make comments like, "I had a good lead so I knew I could back off a couple of tenths per lap." Someone who rides by the seat of their pants will vary more than a few tenths per lap. A multi-championship winning caliber racer like Spies, Rossi, or Josh Hayes will definitely be riding with well-defined markers. That's what practice sessions are for. To experiment with different markers and find the limits.

While passes like the one Rossi made on Stoner at Laguna a couple of years ago are spectacular and fun to watch, it's really consistency that wins in the long run. And the ability to establish, recognize and use markers are the key to that consistency.

asp125
10-11-2011, 11:28 AM
OTOH you could brake really late and pull a Simoncelli.

Prof._HH
10-11-2011, 11:50 AM
I didn't think Sic. used brakes. I thought he just bled off speed by rubbing on the riders around him when they brake.

atomicalex
10-11-2011, 12:00 PM
I didn't think Sic. used brakes. I thought he just bled off speed by rubbing on the riders around him when they brake.There's a NASCAR for bikes???? ;)

shonuff
10-11-2011, 12:05 PM
There's a NASCAR for bikes???? ;)

Only if you're good enough to handle a GP bike and look like Sideshow Bob. :mrgreen:

Prof._HH
10-11-2011, 01:02 PM
There's a NASCAR for bikes???? ;)

I wouldn't call MotoGP NASCAR for bikes.

MotoGPO is racing on bikes. NASCAR puts on a much better advertisement than race IMO.