Rediscovered leaning!

[remy_marathe]

The other day, I was riding through some twistier areas and blind curves back in the foothills of Montecito. Anyway, I came around the corner of one (not going very fast, mind you) and saw a minor rockslide of loose sand and scree immediately ahead. I didn't feel like I had any choice but to suck it up and continue my trajectory right over it or risk oncoming traffic by straightening up and braking. A real moment of fear as my back tire got a little bit slippy, but before I knew it I was through and OK.
Later, I asked a friend what I could've done differently in this situation, and his answer was pretty much "nothing", once I was on that trajectory and at that speed, I didn't want to speed up through the loose stuff or brake. But he did tell me something that I hadn't heard before- he said that the best way to stay stable is to keep the bike as upright as possible while still making the turn. Do this by leaning your body more. A lot of people lean the bike more to effectuate the turn, because it feels fun and speedy (I've now realized that's what I was doing), but it's not usually necessary to trade off that much stability to make everyday turns. Apparently there was recently an article about this in Motorcycle magazine.
Anyway, on the way home from work today I tried leaning my body more to make turns. I mean REALLY leaning. Putting some shoulder into it, just to see how it affected the turn. I was shocked at the responsiveness of the bike to shifts of only my body; up till now I'd considered myself to be pretty negligible compared to the motorcycle's weight. This whole time, I think I've really been underutilizing my steering potential by staying either at the angle of the bike itself and pressing more (leaning the both of us) or counterbalancing to stay upright in slow-speed maneuvers and swerves.

[angrybob]

Through the twisties, there is a balance between speed/comfort versus body lean angle. Back in the day when I was road-tripping to Deal's Gap, I could get mt knee-pucks on the deck through 129...it is that tight. Between trips, I thought that I could improve everything by not getting the knee down. I was right. I was leaned over so far with the bike that I had to go much slower.

(NOTE: as he checks his ego... I am pretty sure that I was doing this to 'look' fast versus go fast. Hey - it was 10 years ago!)

I ended up going a helluva lot faster and much smoother by not having by body so far off the bike. I still hang off the bike some, but haven't touched the knee-puck in many years on the street.

You are absolutely correct that getting your body into the turn more will help. It does have its limits though. In the end, its all about comfort in the end.

[Zixxer10]

There's a lot of controversy regarding counter steering versus "body" steering in racing circles. I don't know why that is because a combination of the two is the most efficient way to go around a corner. Hanging off some or just leaning your upper body will enable the bike to stay more vertical than just sitting upright in the seat. Just leaning forward in a curve lowers your overall center of gravity. Staying vertical and maintaining a constant speed will, of course, make the bike much more stable over a slippery surface. The problem comes when a person is suddenly faced with a situation, such as yours, where they have to remain cool to keep their body from tensing up. In those situations, it has to be a natural reflex because there isn't time to think.

[asp125]

I think riders with dirtbike or mountain bike backgrounds have an easier time with being relaxed in situations like this. They are used to having the bike move under them, as well as being dynamic on the saddle; instead of just sitting there.

Funny about starting to learn the art of hanging off.. I'm sure I looked fast at the track but the stopwatch probably told the real truth. :P

[Paduan]

There's a lot of controversy regarding counter steering versus "body" steering in racing circles.
I have been able to arrive at some comfort level with my belief that the hands do most of the work. This is the basis for the "countersteering" theory.

With the new bike, I have been able to experiment with the differing approaches by utilizing the cruise control feature.

With both hands off the grips, and at varying speeds, I find that lateral body shifts have very little effect on the machines trajectory. In fact, what little effect is acheived is self-corrected by the bikes inherent stabilizing geometry.

On the other hand, just light single finger pressure on the grips is able to initiate and hold strong steering dynamics.

So, my conscious approach to steering technique is to initiate with the hands, then fine-tune the trajectory with body positioning.

But most of the time, I don't think much about it.

I just ride and giggle....

[Wookie]

I think riders with dirtbike or mountain bike backgrounds have an easier time with being relaxed in situations like this. They are used to having the bike move under them, as well as being dynamic on the saddle; instead of just sitting there.

I would tend to agree with this, having ridden/raced mountain bikes for many years. Granted, a mountain bike and motorcycle are vastly different animals, but the techniques used do transfer. I find my self reverting to body movements that I use on my mountain bike, when I approach similar circumstances on the motorcycle.

I have hit several gravel/loose areas in corners on my motorcycle and feel that had I not had the experience of a bike moving around underneath me, would have laid the bike down. Sometimes alternative forms of training pay lots of dividends.

[Zixxer10]

Right. It's much easier to make a 450 to 700 lb bike lean over by moving the wheels to the left or right of center than it is to try and use the rider's 100 to 220 lbs. to make that same bike lean over by climbing all over it. Keith Code makes the point by having people try to ride a bike that has the forks locked in one position. However, as an aid to cornering, body position can help a lot. Being able to move and not be rooted in one spot is a good thing, as Wookie mentioned.

[remy_marathe]

Eventually I'm sure I'll find the happy medium with my bike; right now I'm tending towards extremes when I ride on familiar ground to try to isolate things. Like after working on rising up on the pegs, I found it comfortably familiar (I've done a fair bit of mountain biking). So then I start doing it unnecessarily, rising up for every speedbump, bit of rough road, when most of the time it's probably safest and most stable to keep my ass planted and let my eyeballs jounce ;-).

[Fiacha]

A lesson I keep practicing on tighter turns, lead with your shoulder into the turn (ie right shoulder, right turn). By this I mean, dropping your shoulder down and forward, which causes your body to lean as well. This helps keep your bike a little more upright and is a precursor to hanging off the bike in fast, tight turns ie racing. Not that I'll ever be doing that, but it does make the corners much easier for me to navigate and if I remember to keep my chin up (ie look through the turn) it helps me feel like I am moving slower (ie not panic thinking I'm going to fast). Sounds like the same thing you learned. =)

[kwr8728]

for those that do lean off...remember that the further into a turn you lean the longer it takes you to catch the bike if/when it does slide. I too am a mountain biker, and sometimes race the thing, and have learned the hardway many times in the north georgia clay about sliding and trying to catch two wheeled vehicles. Not saying that you shouldnt lean, just take that into consideration into how much lean you want to use on the street.
Personally i think moving around and assisting the bike with weight transfers is fun...so of course i lean a little.

[Paduan]

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/Paduan/ATT00016.jpg

[remy_marathe]

Is there anything that picture CAN'T illustrate? ;-)

[MotoMan]

Watch the road racers and how they lean off the bikes. The most important thing is trying to kiss your mirror because you get your weight forward to help plant the front wheel better. Shifting your butt off of the seat helps change the overall center of gravity of the bike, which is why you can turn with less lean angle. But on the street you shoudn't really have to get your butt off of the seat much. You can be pretty effective with just moving your upper body.

Countersteering...why do people still debate this. It's a prove fact. Hell, I prove it everytime I ride my mountain bike. It's a bicycle, yet I can easily steer it using countersteering. Same thing on a bike. The thing ain't gonna turn without countersteering. And honestly, when you lean into a turn, I think you naturally push the bar into which you're leaning, creating the countersteer.

Just my $0.02. Keep the change.

[Finch]

I use body positioning all the time. Its great fun and it lets me run less overall lean angle, meaning there is that much more left in reserve if things go south. I'll usually just worry about my upper body (I'm 300 lbs on a 450 lb bike. I'm a MAJOR part of GVW, so if you're a buck-35 you'll get less effect here) but lots of times I'll scoot my butt around some. Occasionally I'll scoot one butt cheek off the seat and get out there, but I always keep the knees in and don't hang off to the extreme like the racers, that for the track. I've already gott the hairy eyeball from the local LEO's when using lots of body english, so be careful. Be careful to note too, if you set up early its very easy to fade toward the inside too early, eating up your available pavement. I always picture folks behind me thinking I must be doing a one cheek sneak at 60mph.

[remy_marathe]

I ALWAYS fade to the inside too early, but I'm just now accepting the fact that apexing is the right way to ride. When I throw in body lean, it's even uglier. Originally, I rejected the advice of outside-inside-out, feeling that it assumes you know how long the curve goes on for (which is not the case on the ones where you really need it around here). I generally took every curve so as to be far from oncoming traffic as possible. So as you can imagine, I was working way too hard and leaning way too much for every given curve. My apexing needs some work, but it's sure made curves feel smoother.

[Rema1000]

Hanging off (or just moving your body a bit) will keep the bike more upright, so you can make a harder lean without scraping pegs. But what about when you won't need so much lean? Is there really any more traction with an upright bike (and the rider leaning off) than there would be with no hanging-off, and a moderate lean to the bike? Tires have a pretty round cross-section, and I'd think that you'd get about as much tire contact area whether the bike is upright or leaned a bit.

I've wondered about this, since I've ridden slowly through turns where there is very little traction. Would it help to be upright (and hanging)? Or do the benefits of moving your weight only happen in harder leans?

[RockyMtnRoadRash]

Like remy, I fade too early. Like everything else, as I'm coming to realize, there's no substitute for repetition to get it right. Guess

[Finch]

Hanging off (or just moving your body a bit) will keep the bike more upright, so you can make a harder lean without scraping pegs. But what about when you won't need so much lean? Is there really any more traction with an upright bike (and the rider leaning off) than there would be with no hanging-off, and a moderate lean to the bike? Tires have a pretty round cross-section, and I'd think that you'd get about as much tire contact area whether the bike is upright or leaned a bit.

I've wondered about this, since I've ridden slowly through turns where there is very little traction. Would it help to be upright (and hanging)? Or do the benefits of moving your weight only happen in harder leans?


I always transfer some weight. Just means there is that much more lean left in reserve if say...a raging elephant charges out of the woods or something. If I suddenly have to lean harder, I've already shifted weight to the inside and will be able to dial in more lean before a peg (or my &%^$#@# centerstand) hits the ground. On nasty gravel or sandy surfaces I'll ride dirtbike style and let the bike move around under me. Also, on gravel and whatnot, you might find the bike to feel more stable if you get it above trundle speeds. Once you get used to the bike doing its own thing a little under you, it's really fun. I love to ride my sporty-tired (read nearly no tread) road bike on gravel and dirt roads. Just be really ginger with that front brake. Road bikes have POWERFUL front brakes that will overwhealm the tire in dirt before you can say "fiddlesticks".

[remy_marathe]

Tires have a pretty round cross-section, and I'd think that you'd get about as much tire contact area whether the bike is upright or leaned a bit.... Would it help to be upright (and hanging)? Or do the benefits of moving your weight only happen in harder leans?

That's a good question! My tires are only "Kind of" round, there's more surface contact at dead center than the approach to the sides, but on a tire that's essentially round that wouldn't be the case. I wonder if it would matter then? Is tire traction the only reason to keep the bike as upright as possible?

[JC]

There seems to be a tad bit more resistance to body positioning than acceptance in this thread. I would suggest that those people read "Sport-Riding Techniques" by Nick Ienatsch. Ienatsch (of "The Pace" fame) puts a good deal of effort in this book talking about using body positioning effectively on the street. Its not all about dragging knee; its about affording your bike a greater margin of error.

The way he explains it.... your bike only has 100 traction points. When you your bike leans, its starts riding on the outside of the tires (which have less contact with the road). The more you lean, the less traction points you have available to you until you hit 0, and there goes the tires underneath you.

The simple physics of this premise are that by leaning your body, it alters your bikes center of gravity in a turn and allows it to stand up more, thus giving you greater traction. Its basically four aspects: countersteering, throttle steering, leg pressure, and weighting the footpegs. I've personally found that weighting the inside footpeg in a turn firmly roots the bike.

Starting to sound like a book report. Anyway, if you're interested read the book. This is not typical 2000 mile beginner stuff, but it does change the misconception that body positioning is ineffective on the street.

[subvetSSN606]

I can't and wouldn't argue that body positioning isn't helpful on the street or anywhere. It is... but although I can't prove it, I think it only adds available lean angle. I believe that for a given radius turn at a given speed you are using a given amount of traction, assuming you aren't dragging hard parts and are still on the usable part of your tires. I don't think it matters what your lean angle is (given those assumptions). The 100 traction points I think is using the above assumptions. If you start dragging parts, or if you manage to lean far enough to get off the good part of the tires you start losing traction points as you get off the good part of the tires or start levering them off the road by dragging parts. You no longer have the full 100. In my mind if your going around a turn using 75 of your 100 traction points, you have 25 traction points available to you to do something else. That could be braking, or that could be tightening your radius... PROVIDED you don't then violate one of the above assumptions.
Proper body position does give you more room before you violate one of those assumptions. But in normal street riding, as unpredictable as it is, one should leave more margin for error than that which would require it. NOT to say it can't or shouldn't be used if it is in your repertoire.

Tom

[sanglant]

I can't and wouldn't argue that body positioning isn't helpful on the street or anywhere. It is... but although I can't prove it, I think it only adds available lean angle. I believe that for a given radius turn at a given speed you are using a given amount of traction, assuming you aren't dragging hard parts and are still on the usable part of your tires. I don't think it matters what your lean angle is (given those assumptions). The 100 traction points I think is using the above assumptions. If you start dragging parts, or if you manage to lean far enough to get off the good part of the tires you start losing traction points as you get off the good part of the tires or start levering them off the road by dragging parts. You no longer have the full 100. In my mind if your going around a turn using 75 of your 100 traction points, you have 25 traction points available to you to do something else. That could be braking, or that could be tightening your radius... PROVIDED you don't then violate one of the above assumptions.
Proper body position does give you more room before you violate one of those assumptions. But in normal street riding, as unpredictable as it is, one should leave more margin for error than that which would require it. NOT to say it can't or shouldn't be used if it is in your repertoire.

Tom


Body positioning gives more traction. If you can't get the bike over to the cases without slipping, then it can give more lean angle, too. But, BP alone cannot increase a bike's ability to lean.

BP also gives more control of the bike at speed, and allows you to get on the gas (not maintanence throttle) harder and sooner. The first is important for street riding, the second, not so much. BP doesn't mean hanging off like a monkey, either. Just shifting your shoulders over and moving your butt off centerline can have a big impact on how well you can make a bike turn.

[JC]

BP doesn't mean hanging off like a monkey, either. Just shifting your shoulders over and moving your butt off centerline can have a big impact on how well you can make a bike turn.

Yeah, thats a big distinction that is made in the aforementioned book. Its not about dragging knee, its about redistributing weight, particularly on the inside foot peg. That's always helped me in the canyons, particularly when riding over rough asphalt.