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Missy B
06-21-2005, 01:28 AM
....and sometimes I even talk on my cell phone. My kids dont play soccer yet, but yes, someday I might even be the dreaded soccer mom. In the meantime, I am distracted by them telling me about the cement mixer we just drove by or asking 1000 other questions about any other subject matter I dont know any more than they do. eg: What happened in that accident? Why is that guy riding his bike on the side of the road...etc. You get the point. My drives with the kids are never quiet. LOL

And still, I manage to not run anyone off the road, or cut in front of other drivers. I am generally a very good driver. Yeah, sure I have a few lapses...just like everyone else....but lately....

I AM the target for most other drivers. Today a lady cut in front of me so badly I had to slam on my brakes to miss her. I had a following distance between me and the guy in front of me. God forbid. I call it a following distance; others call it a place to park themselves. Literally. Not only did lady cut me off, but then proceeded to go 15 mph below the speed limit. Yup, a whitehead. Most whiteheads have gone north for the summer. Not this one.

On my way from bringing H to airport this morning, I was in the left hand turn lane. It's one of those intersections where there are 2 left hand turn lanes. Our turn to go left, I proceed to make my left turn, making sure to go wide b/c I dont want to encroach on the inside left turn lane. Well, the lady next to me (a little sedan) didnt feel like it was necessary for her, apparently, to stay in her lane. Again, swerving so I can get out of the way to avoid her, and a few choice words. More questions from kids. Oops.

So why exactly is it that I get the rap as a mother driving an SUV?? Lately it seems to be something for people to fixate on.

I dont know why, but just had to vent. When the two things happened this morning, I was thinking of the forum and how us moms in SUVs always get the bad rap with us m/c'ists....when here I am dodging people in my SUV.

OK, rant over. LOL

Wookie
06-21-2005, 02:03 AM
Not that you are expecting a response or anything :uhh: , but here is a semi-serious answer.

SUV's have become quite large, giving a false sense of security to those who drive them. This tends to make them pay less attention to the road creating a very serious hazard. Then add in kids, which are generally transported in SUV's, the cell phone, obligatory Starbucks coffe, lack of vision directly in front of them and you get a combination that's not all that great for anybody in a smaller vehicle, especially those on motorcycles.

Quite honestly people in SUV's scare the crap out of me. most pay no attention to the road at all because of the security they feel in their SUV. They figure they are safe so why worry about others? I not only ride a motorcycle, but drive a very small car (Scion xA), which people feel they can just shove out of thier way.

Now for my Rant :wiggleit:

As far as safe following distances, those no longer exist on just about any road with more than two people on them. Everybody on the road seems to think they are Dale Earnhardt in the middle of a NASCAR race and they have a need to not only draft but win the race to where ever they are going. It's a regular occurance for me to see people traveling 70 mph and not be more than 6 feet off the bumper of the person in front of them. This on a 55 mph highway.

Things I've seen on my way to work at 55 + mph

-People eating a bowl of cereal, milk and all
-Men shaving (no shaving cream thank god)
-People reading the newspaper, reports ect.
-Women putting on makeup
-People looking backwards arguing with their kids (generally in SUV's)
-People trying to figure out their navagation systems, not looking at the road for 20-30+ seconds at a time
-People trying to find something they dropped and literally bending over into the passanger seat or reaching behind them for extended periods of time

The funniest/saddest part of it is with all of their aggressive driving, all the weaving in and out of traffic, all the tailgaiting, all the cussing, all the shouting, all the aggression in general, most people make it to their destination in the same amount of time it would have taken then had they just stayed in one lane, relaxed and enjoyed the ride.

I would love traffic dynamics to become a required course that every liscensed driver has to take on a semi-yearly basis.

Remember folks, every driver out there is aiming to kill you, regardless of whether on your bike or in your car.

subvetSSN606
06-21-2005, 02:27 AM
So why exactly is it that I get the rap as a mother driving an SUV?? Lately it seems to be something for people to fixate on.


Same reason we as motorcyclists sometimes get a bad rap.
The ones who do it well don't get noticed.
The ones who ought to have a plexiglass plate installed in their navel so they can see where they're going as they stumble around with their head up their butt, do get noticed.

Tom

94Vgo535Chick
06-21-2005, 02:30 AM
And still, I manage to not run anyone off the road, or cut in front of other drivers. I am generally a very good driver. Yeah, sure I have a few lapses...just like everyone else....but lately....

Oh so funny you should mention this Missy.
Something happened to me that really shook me. I know a few people have had this happen to them. I am a careful driver but sometimes we are all human.
Friday It was a busy day for me I had errands to do. I was out in my not so huge SUV stopped at an intersection. I drive a jeep cherokee. I checked all directions then proceeded to make a left hand turn. My son was with me and yelled Stop Mom! I slammed on my brakes. I almost took out a MC rider! I was in the middle of the intersection when I stopped.

It is true that sometimes you dont see them. I didn`t hear him either it was a quiet bike my windows were even rolled down. He was wearing a military uniform camo colored with a small reflective belt draped around his shoulder. It was a smaller cruiser and he most likely was a beginning rider. Luckily he had the room to make up for my stupid mistake and he wasn`t hurt. Thank goodness.

I know he was more shook up than I was. I felt so bad I wanted to follow him home and apologize. I didn`t do it because he would have thought I was a crazy lady driver in my SUV.

Lisa

LoDownSinner
06-21-2005, 07:58 AM
Your son saw him, though...

SoCal LabRat
06-21-2005, 08:27 AM
LDS, good point. I'm a former SUV driver. I finally got tired of getting reamed at the gas pump. I'm a very careful driver, luckily don't have the distraction of kids and don't talk on the cell phone while driving unless I'm called, and then it's about a 2 minute conversation. It irks me to see folks driving around with that thing glued to their ear. But yes, Missy you're right, you're the stereotype. In the 4 years I had my Explorer, I didn't see cars twice, both times as I was backing out of my driveway.

Last night while taking a group ride to get some ice cream on a divided highway, I noticed that an impatient driver sitting at the red light cross street on my left decided he'd waited long enough for his red light to turn green, and off he went off his line and directly into ours. I was bike number 2 and started to slow, wondering if he was going to stop when he reached our lane. He didn't, and the lead bike didn't see him until he was on her. She missed him by about 3 feet. It was all we could do to keep from chasing after him and at that moment I decided I am going to get a louder horn. If that happens to me, at least I hope to scare the bejesus out of him/her as they're going by. The driver was not in an SUV.

A few miles earlier, we saw a group of girls (high school age) crammed into a car. I watched them closely because I wasn't sure they saw us. They rode in the left lane, next to the lead bike. They were all pretty animated and it was obvious from their wavering lane position the driver could come over at any minute. Eventually the girls in the back seat saw the lead rider, and finally they sped off ahead. Better to see them there than next to us.

In my experience, the drivers we need to really fear are the young (put a group of kids together and watch the IQ go down exponentially) and the elderly (I don't like riding with my 70 year old mom driving). But not seeing somebody can happen to all of us. As drivers and riders, lets be careful out there. Check and double check, don't be in such a hurry, practice your "what ifs" regardless of you mode of transportation, arrive alive.

Hawk Girl
06-21-2005, 08:57 AM
Sure, we all do stupid things occasionally, but we do remember the really bad drivers and people like Missy get the bad rap for it.
As a driver of a mid-size sedan I do get annoyed by the size of the SUVs. If I'm at a stop sign waiting to turn left and an SUV pulls up beside me to turn right my view to the right is completely blocked. If that SUV would just hang back a few feet I could see to the right and the SUV driver could see over me to see to the left.
And then there is backing out of a parking spot when you're between and SUV and a mini-van. I'm sure I'll get hit by someone flying through the parking lot one day. (probably the speeding youngster)

But nobody said life was fair, huh?!

Be safe out there, no matter what you drive. They'll hit you just to see you fly.

Allan
06-21-2005, 08:58 AM
:heyyou: Oh no, and SUV thread. Mabey I should stay out of this before I get another thread closed.

I think its the ego tripping I'm drivein down the road in a 3 ton vehicle because I have a small thingy SUV drivers that give everyone else a bad name. They where for a time the fad/hip car and ive noticed that people who rely heavily on there self image and buy these cars just because they are popular tend not to give a crap about anyone else.

Like someone else mentioned these drivers like squids and 1% give the respectiable drivers/riders a bad rap.

Lezbert
06-21-2005, 10:21 AM
I agree with Wookie. It's a perceived safety issue. I can't tell you how many times I've heard people say they drive their SUV or truck "because I like to sit up high" or "I'm much safer with this much metal around me." What they fail to realize is that driving something that large, at the very least, increases the size of their blind spots and reduces maneuverability (at least until they know how to drive something that large).

One day, I watched a woman in an Expedition attempt to park. The parking garage had nice, wide lanes and the stripes were generously spaced, yet it took three tries for the driver to pull it in. Then I remembered how many times I've seen extremely badly parked SUVs, trucks, minivans, etc., and I devised Rhonda's Rule of the Road. I think the roads would be much safer from people erroneously driving vehicles they can't handle if this cardinal rule is adopted. It's quite simple, and goes like this:

If you can't park it, you shouldn't drive it.

This law applies to ALL vehicles, including motorcycles. There is a caveat. I realize that it might take a little time to get used to a new vehicle. Therefore, Rhonda's Rule of the Road does not come into play while a vehicle has the paper tags.

LoDownSinner
06-21-2005, 10:35 AM
Sure, we all do stupid things occasionally, but we do remember the really bad drivers and people like Missy get the bad rap for it.

Nothing personal, but SHOULDN'T someone get a bad rap for starting to turn in front of a bike? Especially someone who rides and should be more aware? Doesn't turning in front of a bike define bad driving?

That whole Rider Radar thing from MSF class shoould apply to operating a cage also...

LoDownSinner
06-21-2005, 10:38 AM
Double post, sorry...

LoDownSinner
06-21-2005, 10:39 AM
Sure, we all do stupid things occasionally, but we do remember the really bad drivers and people like Missy get the bad rap for it.

Nothing personal, but SHOULDN'T someone get a bad rap for starting to turn in front of a bike? Especially someone who rides and should be more aware? Doesn't turning in front of a bike define bad driving?

That whole Rider Radar thing from MSF class shoould apply to operating a cage also...

EDIT: I just re-read the post. This is NOT aimed at MissyB...

Paduan
06-21-2005, 10:55 AM
I give the worst rap to the "tourists" who come up here in a great big RV that they cannot operate safely.

Most of them appear to be totally locked up with fear, darting from fogline to centerline at about 40 mph.

Most of them have never driven anything bigger than a Ford Focus, which they drag behind their RV, and haven't a clue how to control a large vehicle. And totally oblivious to everything around them.

They travel nose to ass in these huge packs so that traffic stacks up behind them for miles. When pulling onto the road, the entire pack seems to think that the whole world is required to stop and wait so they can come out together, and never lose contact with the ass in front.

It creates a terrible, unsafe rolling mess on the roads.

Oh Lord, you ought to see them tangle up a gas station. Most of our service stations have signs on the pumps that say, "When you are finished filling your tank, please pull your vehicle out of the way, so other customers will not be inconvenienced." So, they spend about 20 minutes filling the tank on "slow" nozzle speed, ignore the sign, and wander inside (right past another similar sign) the station to use the restroom for 30 minutes and then "shop" for a while. All this while their whale is blocking two pump islands.

If they have to be inside of a house to get through every day, why can't they just stay home?

We have an RV, but it's only 24 feet long, just big enough, and can damn well get on down the road without clogging everything up. RVs can actually go about as fast as a pickup or SUV.

Paduan
06-21-2005, 10:56 AM
That was my rant for the day - I'm better now......

Cindy
06-21-2005, 11:34 AM
Well, I may as well get my SUV rant out of the way. Let me begin by saying that I don't have a problem for any SUV driver that operates their vehicle safely and in a friendly manner. The ones that really tick me off are the ones that use their SUV to try and intimidate others in smaller vehicles.

Two days ago I was at a red light in the left lane. A woman in an SUV was to my right, she was on a cellphone and reprimanding her kids in the back seat. The light changed and I accelerated and pulled in the right lane about 200 to 250 yards in front of her. She accelerates, gets on my butt, pulls in the other lane and cuts in front of me then slams on brakes to make a right turn. I don't think for one second that she would have tried this maneuver if she had been on a motorcycle and I had been in the SUV. People like that are a menace and should have their license revoked.

Thanks, I feel better now.

Cindy

Paduan
06-21-2005, 12:03 PM
Listening to all this talk about road rage has got me thinking. And laughing.

Although, we probably curse silently at each others stupid mistakes just about as much as anyone else, most actual Alaskans are pretty polite to each other when on the road.

Maybe it's because of the high percentage of vehicles that are fully armed. Damn near every vehicle except minivans will have at least one each shotgun, long rifle and handgun, well within reach of the driver. It's just the culture, and the cops don't care as long as you tell them when they approach your vehicle.

It doesn't make much sense to scream at or flip off someone who may very well be having a bad day, and is spinning the cylinder on her 44 S&W while she's waiting for the light.

Most of the road rude types are newbies or visitors, who don't yet realize how thin the ice is.

And then there's the issue of being broke down and stranded 100 miles from the nearest service station, house or telephone. It's good to be nice to each other. It keeps the Karma going in a positive circle...

Regnaston
06-21-2005, 12:06 PM
Missy great story.

I have a lady in the church where I am minister that cut me off one day then proceeded to go 15 km/h below limit. It is even worse when you know them.

Dale

sanglant
06-21-2005, 12:10 PM
Listening to all this talk about road rage has got me thinking. And laughing.

Although, we probably curse silently at each others stupid mistakes just about as much as anyone else, most actual Alaskans are pretty polite to each other when on the road.

Maybe it's because of the high percentage of vehicles that are fully armed. Damn near every vehicle except minivans will have at least one each shotgun, long rifle and handgun, well within reach of the driver. It's just the culture, and the cops don't care as long as you tell them when they approach your vehicle.

It doesn't make much sense to scream at or flip off someone who may very well be having a bad day, and is spinning the cylinder on her 44 S&W while she's waiting for the light.

Most of the road rude types are newbies or visitors, who don't yet realize how thin the ice is.

And then there's the issue of being broke down and stranded 100 miles from the nearest service station, house or telephone. It's good to be nice to each other. It keeps the Karma going in a positive circle...


"An armed society is a polite society." :thumbsup:

azpenguin
06-21-2005, 12:26 PM
And then there's the issue of being broke down and stranded 100 miles from the nearest service station, house or telephone. It's good to be nice to each other. It keeps the Karma going in a positive circle...
That is your key, not being armed. Think road rage has stopped anyone from driving like an idiot in a big city? "Well, if I cut this guy off or flip him off, he might shoot me!" Not a chance.

Wookie
06-21-2005, 12:49 PM
Paduan,

Well you have the advantage of living in an isolated, smaller community. If you get aggrivated with somebody's driving, chances are you will run accross them again.

If most community's had the same number of people in the same area you are in, there wouldn't be nearly as many issues with aggressive driving. When I lived in a small town I was never really aggrivated with others driving. Since there wasn't congestion people actually left adaquate space between vehicles lowering the amount of times I was cut off drastically, and lowering the number of times people pulled out in front of me with out looking drastically.

In larger city's think of packing 700,000 people into the same physical area you have 40,000. That tends to creat a lot of irate people because it takes so freaking long to get any where. My daily commute is approximately 23 miles each way. It can take me anywhere from 40 minutes to 2 hours to get to work depending on how well traffic is flowing that day, and this is on a 55 mph highway the entire way.

Then add in the physical size of many large cities and the time it takes to get accross them this alone can add frustration because people end up spending so much time in their vehicles. I know from one side of Portland's suburbs to the other (hillsboro to Troutdale) is about 40 miles. On a bad traffic day in rush hour it can take anywhere from 2-4 hours to travel that distance.

If you enter easy access to guns into this environment for everybody, I think people would just shoot at each other instead of flip each other off. Look at L.A. there for a while they were shooting at each other.

Paduan
06-21-2005, 12:52 PM
If you enter easy access to guns into this environment for everybody, I think people would just shoot at each other instead of flip each other off. Look at L.A. there for a while they were shooting at each other.
I don't really see the down side to that.

We have "shootouts", just like everywhere else, but not much on the highways.

Seems to be a self-correcting problem.....

LoDownSinner
06-21-2005, 12:56 PM
If you enter easy access to guns into this environment for everybody, I think people would just shoot at each other instead of flip each other off. Look at L.A. there for a while they were shooting at each other.
I believe it was Ebenezer Scrooge that once made a remark about reducing the surplus population?

Missy B
06-21-2005, 01:03 PM
...and here I thought I was making a pointless rant thread. :mrgreen:

I guess I just get a little tired of hearing about the "dreaded soccer moms" when often times I am the one being aimed at when driving. LOL There are plenty of other stereotypes out there to pick on......lol.

I can understand not liking SUVs for economical reasons (I AM guilty of driving a gas hog) but I see plenty of aggressive drivers NOT driving SUVs, talking on their phones and yelling at their kids in the back seat....the back seat is just closer, which means they are also trying to hit their kids while driving. :mrgreen:

Wookie
06-21-2005, 01:06 PM
I don't really see the down side to that.

We have "shootouts", just like everywhere else, but not much on the highways.

Seems to be a self-correcting problem.....

Not that I wouldn't mind seeing a "thinning" of the population per se, the problem is those that are the problem would be the ones doing the shooting. You would end up with a society of idiots, just what we need.

Paduan
06-21-2005, 01:42 PM
Not that I wouldn't mind seeing a "thinning" of the population per se, the problem is those that are the problem would be the ones doing the shooting. You would end up with a society of idiots, just what we need.
Not supported by any actual data, I have this suspicion that the more intelligent types would soon "outgun" the idiots.

The ones who would start this process, the idiots, generally arm themselves with little thought of actual retaliation. They mostly obtain cheap junk. Fire off a few rounds, hope to hit something and flee.

Smarter shooters will consider what armament will be more aplicable to an extended, more highly-skilled response profile.

"Reach out and touch someone".....

RockyMtnRoadRash
06-21-2005, 02:32 PM
Alright, I feel the need to air this out. Everything here should be read with a subtextual IMO

I hate SUVs as a class of car, and I hate SUV drivers as a class. This isn't logical, it's just plain knee-jerk angry.

Like any generalization in my head, I make exceptions about people on a case by case basis.

Still, I hate their cars. No matter what justifications SUV owners come up with, I couldn't care less. SUVs are stupid, and don't do anything a different vehicle can't do better. I think buying an SUV necessarily implies a level of disregard for the planet, and that really pisses me off. Nothing burns me up like seeing a person driving all alone in a huge SUV.

SUVs suck. People who drive SUVs are assumed to suck unless proved otherwise. Any one of you all, I have no problem with, but if you drive an SUV just be aware that I harbor a semi-logical hatred for your SUV.

94Vgo535Chick
06-21-2005, 02:37 PM
...and here I thought I was making a pointless rant thread.

I dont think it is a pointless thread Missy. I condsider you very human.


Your son saw him, though...
Thanks for trying to make me feel better LDS. Thank god my son did see him. It still irritates me though. Ultimately I am responsible for what I do on the roadways.
Your right about being on a bike should make you more aware. 99% of the time I am. I always look for MC riders. Its the 1% of the time that you have to deal with. Bikes are always around here in California any time of year.

I want to point out generally (not aimed at anyone person) That if you really think your above making mistakes while driving, Karma will eventually catch up to you no matter what vehicle you drive. :heyyou:

Go through any more populated city or when you stop at a light at an intersection, count how many people are on a cell phone in rush hour traffic waiting on that light. I have counted them. They all dont drive SUVs. ;-)

Lisa

RMRR

I am curious what vehicles do you own?

Paduan
06-21-2005, 03:39 PM
Still, I hate their cars. No matter what justifications SUV owners come up with, I couldn't care less. SUVs are stupid, and don't do anything a different vehicle can't do better. I think buying an SUV necessarily implies a level of disregard for the planet, and that really pisses me off. Nothing burns me up like seeing a person driving all alone in a huge SUV.

If I can't haul a 1200 pound moose (dead) in it, or pull my boat with it, it serves little purpose.

My bike has room for all of us (2), which is just fine for non-utilitarian transport.

My pickup truck stays parked unless I've got something to haul.

I pretty much hate the people who came up with the SUV concept.

GundamPilotX
06-21-2005, 04:11 PM
I don't really see the down side to that.

We have "shootouts", just like everywhere else, but not much on the highways.

Seems to be a self-correcting problem.....


Paduan, I couldn't agree more. People would tend to be more polite if they thought their poor manners might just get them killed. It'd only take a few examples for the point to get across to the rest of the population. Carrying a gun doesn't make you an idiot, as Wookie suggested (I think), an idiot is defined by his poor decision making. Personally I think anyone who hasn't considered a little "traveller's insurance" with all the kooks out there these days is insane.

Justin

94Vgo535Chick
06-21-2005, 04:22 PM
Originally Posted by RockyMtnRoadRash
Still, I hate their cars. No matter what justifications SUV owners come up with, I couldn't care less. SUVs are stupid, and don't do anything a different vehicle can't do better. I think buying an SUV necessarily implies a level of disregard for the planet, and that really pisses me off. Nothing burns me up like seeing a person driving all alone in a huge SUV.

I wasnít looking for an opportunity to pick on you about your vehicle of choice. Let me make that clear. I was just curious RMRR. You do have a right to your opinion. I am not looking to change it its cool.

Oh I would love to have a vehicle that donít disregard the planet but the majority of them do. Even a MC burns gas.
A hybrid vehicle would be great to have but since my relatives live a few thousand miles away it isnít feasible to own one right now. Funny now its almost cheaper to fly than drive long distances. I wonder how much more airplanes would contribute?

I wouldnít feel the need to apologize for which vehicle I drive. I also own 6 motorcycles.

Oh and we left the 1983 big ol motor Camero hot rod in Kentucky parked in a garage. I would assume that it would burn just as much if not more gas than my SUV. The Jeep is our primary vehicle here. ;-)

Lisa

Wookie
06-21-2005, 04:28 PM
GundamPilotX,

Actually that's not what I implied. Personally I have nothing against gun ownership, though I have no need for one my self.

The way I see it, if everybody owned a gun and carried it loaded, ready to fire, the idiots would be the ones shooting everbody else. Those who were responsible gun owners would never see a situation dire enough on the road to actually use a gun, until they were shot first by the idiots of the world who will "Shoot first and ask questions later".

The idiots that started "Shooting first and asking questions later" would just cause a free for all. The "idiot's" actions would cause the responsible gun owners to perk up and use the idiots guide to gun ownership and start shooting first just to protect themselves. It's a no win situation.

Why would anybody on any level ever even suggest the idea of


People would tend to be more polite if they thought their poor manners might just get them killed

Quite honestly, when has poor manners every been a reason to kill somebody, or even shoot somebody for that matter? Even the suggestion is quite asinine. The killing of somebody due to their "Poor manners" would equate to your very definition of an "Idiot"


an idiot is defined by his poor decision making

Putting a gun in an idiots hands just make you an idiot for giving an idiot a gun.

94Vgo535Chick
06-21-2005, 04:33 PM
How in the world did this SUV thing turn into a gun control issue?

Hmmmmm
Lisa

sanglant
06-21-2005, 04:35 PM
Putting a gun in an idiots hands just make you an idiot for giving an idiot a gun.

What if you gave him a clean, unloaded gun so that you could shoot him and then claim it was self-defence since he had pulled a gun on you? :deal:

sanglant
06-21-2005, 04:36 PM
How in the world did this SUV thing turn into a gun control issue?

Hmmmmm
Lisa


And where did the dead moose come from? :thinking:

94Vgo535Chick
06-21-2005, 04:49 PM
http://jbhasroom.com/hunter.gif Lock and load everybody!

LOL

FAF
06-21-2005, 04:51 PM
And where did the dead moose come from? :thinking:

Well, probably the mama moose...I'm going to assume it was killed by a gunshot and maybe now its being hauled home to be cleaned, cooked and eaten. It's gotta be better than muktuk.

How does one get a half ton moose into one's truck?

FAF

Wookie
06-21-2005, 04:53 PM
Run for the hills 94Vgo535Chick has a gun :uhoh3:


How does one get a half ton moose into one's truck?

What I want to know is how do you get a 1/2 ton moose on your motorcycle? In Alaska they don't actually need a gun, they just run them over with their trucks.

RockyMtnRoadRash
06-21-2005, 05:02 PM
I wasnít looking for an opportunity to pick on you about your vehicle of choice. Let me make that clear. I was just curious RMRR. You do have a right to your opinion. I am not looking to change it its cool.

Oh I would love to have a vehicle that donít disregard the planet but the majority of them do. Even a MC burns gas.
A hybrid vehicle would be great to have but since my relatives live a few thousand miles away it isnít feasible to own one right now. Funny now its almost cheaper to fly than drive long distances. I wonder how much more airplanes would contribute?

I wouldnít feel the need to apologize for which vehicle I drive. I also own 6 motorcycles.

Oh and we left the 1983 big ol motor Camero hot rod in Kentucky parked in a garage. I would assume that it would burn just as much if not more gas than my SUV. The Jeep is our primary vehicle here. ;-)

Lisa

It's cool. I don't mean any harm by my instinctive hatred of SUVs, and I don't mind you asking.

I have a Subaru Imprezza '95 wagon and my bike. The bike's been a blessing because I can drive it up and down the hill every and feel less like slapping myself around. A Hybrid Car would make me a happy man. If Toyota would take their heads out of their butts and realize that a Hybrid Compact pickup would be the greatest thing ever, I'd be on that like stank on sh*t.

You make a good point about fuel-inefficient cars being a problem too, but people tend to think more about efficiency with cars, whereas SUV buyers just want big and/or impressive.

Right now we don't have any options other than gas burning for going distances, and it drives me batty. Like most environmentalists, I have a conflicted relationship with my gas-burning vehicles.

I found a fun link though,
http://www.cnn.com/2005/AUTOS/funonwheels/06/17/car_smog_pay/index.html

Guilt-Free SUV... and yet no SUV owners even think about it. *sigh*

I'd like nothing better than to see SUVs disappear from the face of the earth, but I can't effect that sort of change by personally berating every driver. SUVs are just one symptom of a larger problem. The Problem's root is an attitude, and attitudes are tough to change.

94Vgo535Chick
06-21-2005, 05:03 PM
Dont worry I only hunt for food..

Now moose brisket.... I wonder how big that smoker would have to be.....

Lisa

94Vgo535Chick
06-21-2005, 05:24 PM
Thanks for taking no offence. RMRR
Neat things the alternative fuel vehicles. Cool link also. The truck would be very cool.
I read an article in my local paper on how they test for mileage vs. gas usage. The article said they spin the numbers and test vehicles differently than most people use them. So who can you believe. We all know we are harming our enviornment to some degree.


I'd like nothing better than to see SUVs disappear from the face of the earth, but I can't effect that sort of change by personally berating every driver. SUVs are just one symptom of a larger problem. The Problem's root is an attitude, and attitudes are tough to change.

Yep I seen a ton of poser vehicles my last trip to LA. I havent been back there since I picked up my jeep in Long beach when a boat delivered it back to the states. Outragous everything. I noticed that people drive all sort of vehilces to fit in. All stuck in a traffic jam.....

Lisa

GundamPilotX
06-21-2005, 05:43 PM
I'll say this, and with apologies for thread-jacking.

NEWS FLASH! Idiots already have guns. They're already shooting first and asking questions later. Every idiot who wants a gun has probably already obtained one whether legally or illegally. Moreover, modern firearms are well-made; they'll last for 100 years or more, so the undocumented firearms out in circulation is unimaginable. I was simply making a statement that more guns in the hands of responsible, law-abiding citizens would make for a safer world. How does this work? By making criminal activity a dangerous job again. A few stories (if the media would ever make the distinction between a legitimate self-defense shooting and some crazy killing spree) of people taking up for themselves when, as usual, law enforcement is nowhere to be found, might make criminals think their job is more dangerous than they thought. And yes, I think someone who drives like a maniac, putting others' lives at risk while waving a gun around in traffic is a criminal. Wouldn't you be less likely to scream and run people off the road in order to jerk them out of their car and beat them if you thought they might just put Sir Isaac Newton in the driver seat long enough for them to load a mag? It's that very reason why I'm VERY polite in traffic. The idiots already have guns, and I'd rather not trade lead with any of them.


The way I see it, if everybody owned a gun and carried it loaded, ready to fire, the idiots would be the ones shooting everbody else.

I've been wrong before, but are you suggesting that the law-abiding should sit back and cower in fear of retaliation for more lawful self-defense shootings? If the very unlikely occasion arises where I have to defend my own life, I will worry about the consequences later, including any retaliation that might result. Murder rates may be 1 in 100,000, but the murder rate if it's me being murdered is purely academic. Just like I could ride for years without gear and without having an accident, but it only takes once...

I was speaking to a specific audience, this board (and Paduan in god-knows-where-Alaska in particular where a law enforcement officer might take hours to get somewhere), which seems to contain mostly law-abiding, reasonable people who wouldn't shoot somebody at the drop of a hat. If you're psychologically well enough not to beat your kids or pick fights in the middle of an office luncheon over the TPS reports, you're probably mentally mature enough to carry a gun. I wasn't suggesting handing out free guns in Happy Meals, either. People that want to own guns should, those that don't shouldn't. I happen to believe most people are smart enough to know when to use a gun and when not to.

What particular part is no-win? I like the idea of things being on an even playing field for everybody. Let's enlist Darwin's help and let the smarter, better equipped, law-on-their-side people survive. Good guys don't "shoot first to protect themselves". That's a ridiculous notion. Good guys only shoot according to law, which in most cases is only if they are in fear of their life or severe bodily injury (or can defend an innocent 3rd party). If a mistake is made in judgement, the "supposedly" good guy shooter will face the consequences, just like anybody else. There will be times when the good guy looses, but how is that any different from the way it is now? A gun isn't a magic talisman to ward off evil, it's a last chance to save your own skin.

What I was talking about with respect to "poor manners" was mere hyperbole. Personally I think poor manners ought to be a capital offense, hehe, but I don't make the laws, I just follow them.

All said, the point I was getting at was that people who want to keep frolicking thru life without insurance, without a fire extinguisher, without a helmet, without a safety net, without a few bucks put away for a rainy day, without a seat belt, without a condom, without locks on their doors, or without a gun can go right ahead. I believe people ought to be able to make their own decisions, even if they're poor decisions or even if they don't realize they ARE making them thru their inaction. I just won't, and I'll continue to advocate responsible gun ownership and concealed carry to anybody who will listen because it just makes sense in my opinion.

More bad guys stopped in their tracks=a happier, safer, more free society to me.

Justin

x_cuesme
06-21-2005, 05:51 PM
Folks, got to admit- no harm meant to anyone, but I kind of get a kick out of hearing all of us 'stereotype' drivers of 'brand X type vehicle' the way we hate people 'stereotyping' bikers in general or certain classes of bikes in particular.

The vehicle does not make the driver and there is no one type of vehicle- 18 wheeled, 4 wheeled, 3 wheeled, or 2 wheeled- that deserves a bad rap because of the idiot that may drive it.

I can come up with multiple examples of horrible driving and unsafe tactics and general rudeness in each category above.

The SUV driving soccer mom that's had an incident with a biker cutting her off, weaving in and out of traffic, or zooming around her kids and the SUV popping wheelies can make as good a case against motorcyclists as any of us can against SUVs.

We're both right- in that instance, in that situation, regarding that particular driver.

I'd like to claim myself an environmentalist, too- and I really do care-

But I'd have to promote gettting rid of all large-displacement motorcycles and replacing them with as small a displacement two-wheeler as possible to get the job done. There wouldn't be very many bikes left over 250cc- and a lot of them smaller than that...

Nancy

Wookie
06-21-2005, 06:38 PM
GundamPilotX,

I hate to break this to you, but taking the law into your own hands does make you a criminal. If it's a matter of self defense that's one thing, but shooting/killing somebody because they cut you off in traffic isn't self defense.

Giving everybody a gun is not the solution.

The real problem here is that traffic infractions are treated as such, infractions. People don't want to pay taxes for jails, extra law enforcement officers, more judges, etc. When this takes place punishments are not enforced and result in a slap on the wrist for anybody.

How many times have people been killed by drunk drivers who had been convicted of DUI on multiple occasions? The number is staggering. How many people are driving with a suspended license? Again the number is staggering.

If you want to stop aggressive driving, make the punishment strong enough to curb it.

Make speeding tickets proportional to the speed they were driving, say $100.00 for every MPH above the speed limit and ticket every single person that goes in excess of the speed limit. No reduced fines period. If somebody is given a reckless driving ticket they loose their license permanently. If they get caught driving again they serve mandatory jail time.

If somebody is caught drunk driving, they serve mandatory jail time, minimum 5 years. Multiple offenses result in life in prison (eventually they will kill somebody, so why not just put them there now?)

Real consequences are the solution, not vigilante justice.



All said, the point I was getting at was that people who want to keep frolicking thru life without insurance, without a fire extinguisher, without a helmet, without a safety net, without a few bucks put away for a rainy day, without a seat belt, without a condom, without locks on their doors, or without a gun can go right ahead. I believe people ought to be able to make their own decisions, even if they're poor decisions or even if they don't realize they ARE making them thru their inaction. I just won't, and I'll continue to advocate responsible gun ownership and concealed carry to anybody who will listen because it just makes sense in my opinion.

Here I totall agree with you. I think people should be responsible for thier own actions and there are way to many laws put in place to protect us from our selves. If somebody want's to make a stupid choice, I say go for it, just be ready to accept the consequences for your actions.

Again, I'm all for responsible gun ownership. Personally, I'll never own one, but to each their own. Guns are only as dangerous as their owner. I'm not advocating against guns, I'm advocating against vigilante justice and shooting people because they got you a little angry.

Back on the thread topic:

I still don't like SUV's ;-)

LoDownSinner
06-21-2005, 06:44 PM
Folks, got to admit- no harm meant to anyone, but I kind of get a kick out of hearing all of us 'stereotype' drivers of 'brand X type vehicle' the way we hate people 'stereotyping' bikers in general or certain classes of bikes in particular.
LOL!!!!

I don't know about the rest of you, but I kind of miss the days when 'citizens' were afraid of people on motorcycles...

:biker: :biker: :-( :whip:

LoDownSinner
06-21-2005, 06:51 PM
How many times have people been killed by drunk drivers who had been convicted of DUI on multiple occasions? The number is staggering. How many people are driving with a suspended license? Again the number is staggering.

Real consequences are the solution, not vigilante justice.

Check out www.sherriglover.org

Sherri was a RiderCoach at one of the schools where I teach...

"On Sunday morning, June 22, 2003, Sherri Glover was enjoying a motorcycle ride along one of her favorite routes from Nashville through rural Williamson County near the Natchez Trace. She was struck and killed by a driver whose blood alcohol content was 0.36% according to a Tennessee Bureau of Investigation (TBI) crime lab report. Currently, the legal limit is 0.08%. The other driver had two prior DUIs and was arrested for vehicular homicide, DUI, and violation of the state open container law. "

Wookie
06-21-2005, 06:51 PM
I don't know about the rest of you, but I kind of miss the days when 'citizens' were afraid of people on motorcycles...

Depending on the individual they are :uhh:

When my wife was first learning to ride we were practicing in a parking lot. A group of kids came around the corner and saw us dressed in leathers riding cruisers and had a funny "Oh Crap" look on their face. The promptly turned around and went the other direction.

My wife has friends who are also "somewhat" afraid of bikers, well at least those dressed in leathers, riding on harley's/cruisers.

AirForceTeach
06-21-2005, 07:08 PM
or pick fights in the middle of an office luncheon over the TPS reports,

http://www.disclife.com/worlds2000/images/kc_clap.jpg
Golf Clap for that one!

MarcS
06-21-2005, 07:22 PM
Folks, got to admit- no harm meant to anyone, but I kind of get a kick out of hearing all of us 'stereotype' drivers of 'brand X type vehicle' the way we hate people 'stereotyping' bikers in general or certain classes of bikes in particular.

The vehicle does not make the driver and there is no one type of vehicle- 18 wheeled, 4 wheeled, 3 wheeled, or 2 wheeled- that deserves a bad rap because of the idiot that may drive it.

I can come up with multiple examples of horrible driving and unsafe tactics and general rudeness in each category above.

The SUV driving soccer mom that's had an incident with a biker cutting her off, weaving in and out of traffic, or zooming around her kids and the SUV popping wheelies can make as good a case against motorcyclists as any of us can against SUVs.

We're both right- in that instance, in that situation, regarding that particular driver.

I'd like to claim myself an environmentalist, too- and I really do care-

But I'd have to promote gettting rid of all large-displacement motorcycles and replacing them with as small a displacement two-wheeler as possible to get the job done. There wouldn't be very many bikes left over 250cc- and a lot of them smaller than that...

Nancy

Nancy -- it *is* partly the vehicle. SUVs have poor visibility and poor/difficult handling. Sportbikes have more power than most people will ever learn to control, and are very difficult to handle properly. I've been on my ZZR for 6 months, commuting and recreational riding, and I can't control all of the power. And it's not exceptional compared to the other modern liter and open class bikes.

Roughly half the close calls I've had with another vehicle have been with an SUV, and they are *not* that over-represented. The other half have been with passenger cars. I've never had a close call with a sports car or a truck.

I don't think SUV drivers ought to take it personally, but rather as a sign that they are driving vehicles that are above-average in difficulty to properly control. 50% of the SUV drivers on the road are below average, and in a difficult-to-control vehicle, in a country with very lax licensing requirements, below average is pretty low.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sport_utility_vehicle



In 2004, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration released figures showing that drivers of SUVs were 11 percent more likely to die in an accident than people in cars. [2] (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/17/business/17auto.html?ex=1250481600&en=ab39f99261bb8c6e&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland) These figures may be confounded by variables other than the vehicles' inherent safety, for example the documented tendency for SUVs to be driven more recklessly (most sensationally perhaps, the 1996 finding that SUV drivers are more likely to drive drunk [3] (http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/studies/LTV/)). SUV drivers are also statistically less likely to wear their seatbelts. [4] (http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/studies/LTV/) The tendency to drive SUVs recklessly may be linked back to the perception that they provide superior driver protection.

asp125
06-21-2005, 08:24 PM
There are no bad SUVs only bad SUV drivers. Somebody behind the wheel of a 3 ton behemoth should be required to take the 4 wheeled equivalent of the ERC. We advocate starting small, why isn't the same standard applied to 4 wheels?

I was towing a car trailer down a busy highway, in a dually .. probably maybe 8-10,000 pounds of metal. You should see all the drivers in cars, bikes, SUVs who pass me because I'm slow, and then cut in front of me - taking away the gap I use a safety cushion. Most folks don't have a clue how much room it takes for that much truck to stop. Doesn't matter if you're in a bike or car or SUV. drivers in general are clueless and think they drive better than they actually do.

x_cuesme
06-21-2005, 08:27 PM
MarcS-

I agree SUV's are difficult to handle- so are vans, and extended vans are a real trip- and visibility IS a problem and you have to be careful.

You need to know your vehicle, understand the characteristics of your vehicle, and really know how to handle it- and it doesn't matter how many wheels it has. Some are more dangerous than others or harder to handle- when you choose it, you choose the responsibility of learning to control it.

Personally, I don't believe these people are any safer or responsible- although their results might be better because the vehicle is easier to drive- in any other type of vehicle they choose.

That was basically my point- it's the people that are the problem. I'm taking your word (and I do believe it) that sport bikes are more dangerous-

Because I've never driven one. There is no doubt in my mind that I do NOT have the skill to handle a sport bike at this point; therefore I will not buy one or ride someone else's. May be someday! :wiggleit:

( I think I'd like it.....)

LDS, when I occasionally see 'that look' when I walk in with leathers on, makes me want to laugh...Yup, I'm dangerous- I swing one tough mascara wand.... It just kills me that people can make ridiculous assumptions because of what I'm wearing and how I got there!

Kathlene
06-21-2005, 11:16 PM
I'm with you on this one Missy B, although I don't drive a Ford Explorer any more. I would be if hubby didn't make me trade it in. I now have a subaru outback, yeah a mini station wagon is what I call it. And I hate it!!!
If I'm at a stop sign and a car is either to my left or right, I can even see what is coming and if it is safe to go. All I see are their door panels.
And if I'm following someone, all I can see is their bumper, I can't see any of the traffic ahead.

Talk about safe? NOT!

I wasn't a soccer mom either.... Just a woman who need room to tote lots of things from here to there.

Missy B
06-21-2005, 11:44 PM
Thanks, Kathlene. As with any debate, I'm not looking to change anyone's mind or tell someone they are wrong. If you "hate" (kinda strong word IMO, but..again...to each his own) SUV's, so be it. All I know is that I love my Expedition....yes...an Expedition. I wont apologize for it. I know it's limitations and I know my limitations in it. Driving it requires a lot of mirror checks (knowing what's around me) and a lot of head checks...Hmm....sound familiar? As far as maneuvering it, I dont have problems with it. It's not getting into parking spots I worry about....but instead other cars around me, so I tend to park away from others so I dont ding doors, etc. Tucson has the smallest parking spots ever, never mind trying to put an Expedition in one.

I dont drive an expedition because of the supposed posing affect. What exactly does it mean to drive an expedition? I have one because it serves multipurposes for me.....

1. I can volunteer to drive for school field trips since buses are not an option these days a lot of the times. Guess who loves the SUV-driving moms then? The teachers because they have someone who can take 6 kids and another adult.

2. We have a boat that we tow an hour and 15 minutes to a lake. The Expedition does very well towing it, and also launching it off of a very steep launch ramp.

3. Can tow said boat AND take 6 people with us vs all of us having to ride in separate vehicles. It is a great experience to have friends in the vehicle with us for a fun road trip.

4. I do have more visibility. I like to look through cars to see what's ahead. I can do that well in the Expedition.

5. Believe it or not, the Expedition will haul a lot of stuff. There has been a few times we've bought big stuff and H never thought it would fit in the Expedition. He was wrong. We recently had all 4 of us in it, and brought home an air compressor in the same trip. (Dont ask me the size of the compressor...it was big, tho.)

6. The lab loves it and she's the princess. 'Nuf said. :mrgreen:

Have I ridden in it by myself? Yes. Usually on my way to get my kids or I had to drop them off in the morning and I am on my way home from work at night solo.

Could I use another vehicle for these purposes? I dont think so. If it was simply to run my kids back and forth, yes, but that's not all I use the SUV for. I LOVE my Expedition - it's one of the very few vehicles I've ever owned that I happily make the payment for each month.

Of course, I could move up to an Excursion. That one is a little big for my tastes, however. :mrgreen:

valgal
06-21-2005, 11:50 PM
I want to point out generally (not aimed at anyone person) That if you really think your above making mistakes while driving, Karma will eventually catch up to you no matter what vehicle you drive.

Yep Karma has a way of biting us in the butt big time.

Try not to be so hard on yourself. There is not one single person on this forum who can honestly say they have not made a mistake at one time or another behind the wheel of the car. I say often, "there I go by the grace of God".

RMRR, try not to be too hard on SUV folks. We don't buy for either big or impressive. OMG what s impressive about a Ford Expedition, please tell me? Ugly and bulky and difficult to handle.

The bottom line for many of us is they are a tool to fit our toys in We use them to go camping with our kids and to carry our gear. We pile an extra couple of kids in them when we take our kids places like skiing or hockey. We haul sailing gear for two kids by car topping one boat and trailoring another while the car is filled up to the hilt with foul weather and camping gear.

We can carpool in the SUV. What is the difference between two moms taking their kids to hockey or soccer in two different cars than one Mom taking all the kids to hockey. MPG is the same or less, one less car on the road and one less tired Mom too. Sometimes a car full of kids may represent four families rather than the four seperate cars otherwise.

I know it aches you to see one driver in an SUV using up all that gas and road. I hate it too. Last year we bought me the Mini and I used it and saved the SUV for only necessary trips that required hauling or entailed a great deal of mud. Unfortunately our 17 year old drives now too. We can't presently afford another car and the insurance for it. Imagine the cost of insuring four cars a payment for two of them and insurance with a 17 year old new driver.

I am certain many of the drivers out there hit at the heart of the values you are so opposed to. But not necessarily all of them, or most of them. Try to temper that reaction with how you hope they view you when they see you on your bike.

They are not necessarily the type of people you think them to be.

ymibhdu
06-22-2005, 02:57 AM
I ride a motorcycle and drive either an Outback or a Toyota MR2. Realistically, the Toyota and the Outback get the same gas mileage. I look more frugal driving the smaller car, but I really am not. The bike gets double the mileage and doesn't require premium gas, so I use it whenever possible. The fun factor between the supercharged MR2 and a Pacific Coast are remarkably similar.

Now, my nephew just got his license, and mommy felt that he could only drive an SUV, "because it is safer than a smaller car". As a user of both a motorcycle and a tiny car, I ask, "Safer for who?" The harsh reality is that most people only care about protecting themselves and those they deem worthy. I honestly believe that with Hummers and Suburbans and Excursions and the like, there should be some sort of need-based and/or graduated licensing. Why should your 16 year old with two weeks of experience get to be safer than someone who has driven for almost 20 years? I think the driver that causes the accident should stand at least as good a chance of getting hurt as the person they involved in the accident. I do question why every driveway in suburbia seems to have at least one SUV parked on it. Growing up, my family of four had a mini pick-up and a VW Beetle. Ideal? no. Did it work? Yes. Having a kid doesn't require you to sell the Corolla and buy a 4Runner. I guess some of it is part of the society we live in.

I have towed a 22' box trailer behind a Suburban. At work, I regularly drive a 4x4 Suburban, a full sized van, or an 16' box truck. I am aware of the difficulties of driving larger vehicles. I take this responsibility seriously. I can parallel park the box truck. I adjust the mirrors before pulling out. I let the freaking cell phone ring if conditions are such that answeing would be unsafe, and if I do answer it I get off the phone when I am done, being blunt if necessary.

Too many people don't take driving seriously. They treat it as a social activity rather than a life-threatening one. I think that when getting a driver's license, everyone should have to ride on a motorcycle to feel the vulnerability. They should have to drive a box truck to see the blind spots and feel the difference in handling and braking. Same with towing a trailer. I think one of the most important benefits I have from driving a wide array of vehicles is that I am more familiar with the limitations of each. I give a wider berth to tow vehicles, delivery trucks, large SUV's, vans without windows, and motorcycles.

Perhaps the gripe we all share is that people don't focus on driving as much as they should. The licensing requirements in the US are too lax, and any attempt to tighten them gets protested by special interests. I like the motorcycle licensing system in place in some countries where you test for a certain size class of bikes and can't ride something bigger without another test. Perhaps we should apply this to cars as well? CDL's exist for larger trucks. Maybe a Suburban or Expedition or Ram 2500 crew cab 4X4 should require a more stringent license to operate too? They are basically commercial sized vehicles after all. Soem of them skirt the same weight restrictions that keep our box truck off certain roads. Perhaps some sort of needs-based purchase requirement? Now, I know that is way off limits in our society. Personally, I think the rising fuel costs will curtail some of the recreational purchase of behemoths, but I think a major shift in the values of society have to change before some people stop commuting to work in whatever vehicle they can affford, without reference to the impact on others and the environment.

As for me, I plan to keep my commuter bike, sports car, and Outback as long as they all fit my needs as well. Perhaps I am just as self-serving as anyone else?

My two cents.

Bob

bkrgrl750
06-22-2005, 07:02 AM
I was in the left hand turn lane. It's one of those intersections where there are 2 left hand turn lanes. Our turn to go left, I proceed to make my left turn, making sure to go wide b/c I dont want to encroach on the inside left turn lane. Well, the lady next to me (a little sedan) didnt feel like it was necessary for her, apparently, to stay in her lane.

I encounter this same thing on my way to work to work every day...except that two lanes turn into three lanes and cars attempt to do the same thing on both sides. On my bike, I can usually accelerate through the turn (in my own lane) before other vehicles and avoid the inevitable. Unfortunately, I cannot always do this in my car. That said, 9 times out of 10, I actually feel safer when on my bike in traffic (I can swerve faster, manuever in smaller spaces, accelerate faster to get out of the way, etc.). Sure, cars pull out in front of me all of the time...but from my limited experience thus far, not any more or less than when I am in my car (perhaps less so when I am on my truck!).

valgal
06-22-2005, 08:40 AM
ymbhdu,

How would you propose a needs based on any vehicle? What would be needs? Many people would say we do not need to be hauling our kids to and from the way we do. Manypeople would say to the large family you did not need to be so fruitful and mulitiply at the rate you did. That would be pretty darn tough.

It is the survival instinct to look out for one's own before looking out for the remainder of society. There is little you can do that will change that.

I do however think it is reasonable to have people certified for certain sizes and classes of vehicles. You just might be suprised though at how many kids will test just fine in an SUV if that is al they have learned on.

Val

ymibhdu
06-22-2005, 09:02 AM
As I said in my note, a flawed concept that wouldn't work. Too hard to define in the real world. Believe me, I don't want the government making any more decisions for me either.

Again, looking out for one's own I do understand, it's just the arrogant disregard for the unlucky sap that is in the wrong place at the wrong time that I don't quite understand. When I posed the question to the sister in law in a humorous fashion with regard to her son in the SUV vs me on the bike or in either of my cars, she stammered a second and replied that it would be my fault for not driving something larger. Circular logic that keeps everyone in an escalating Escalade clause.

I have no problem with skilled drivers in or on whatever they are capable of controlling. I shudder at those who cannot park a vehicle, yet they feel perfectly justified barreling along on the freeway at 80 in it while yapping on the phone, drinking a soda, and yelling at someone in the vehicle. Vehicles need to be understood and treated as the dangerous weapons they are, by the drivers, the pedestrians, and the agencies that grant licenses to wield them.

Bob

valgal
06-22-2005, 09:27 AM
What makes you think that every teen and their parent who has them drive the SUV has an arrogant disregard for the other unlucky sap? My kid is in the SUV but that does not mean I haven't instilled the value in him to be a courteous and careful driver and stewart of other people's lives.

I think what many parents think of is not their kid doing something foolish that kills another but keeps them alive, they think of their kid as being hit by the drunk driver and would rather them in the SUV than the small car.

My kid though is in the SUV for other reasons that safety, although that was one of the consideration.

I gues what I am saying is that it is easy when I am looking at folks while in my Mini and to contrive all sorts of negative reasons as to why they drive the SUV that just are not so.

BTW when that doesn't work, changing your perception on the people in the SUVs I will point you to the brilliant quote you have at the end of your posts. In life we do indeed have to make what seems like stupidity work for us, otherwise, we'd be miserable.

Val

mudarra
06-22-2005, 10:58 AM
Big vehicles, Guns, Sexy soccer moms, and dead game animals!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That's enough to give this redneck a huge woody! :rockon:


On a more serious note. I have no problems with SUVs. I think county ordinance here requires every family to own at least two!
I do have a problem with poorly trained drivers operating 5000+ lbs vehicles in the same manner they would drive a 3000 lbs car.

As for bad drivers in general. I get just as many jack-*sses pulling out in front of my 5500lbs 4x4 as I do on my bike. I guess it's a little more prevelant in our minds when we are riding and not surrounded by stamped metal.

As for a lively gun debate? I'm simply not in the mood. I will say this. If my life is threatened....I WILL NOT BE A VICTIM!

Java
06-22-2005, 11:17 AM
I am getting a little tired of the whole "evil SUV" thing. Every night on the news, if it's any other kind of vehicle, it's "Mr.Smith ran the red light...... but if it's an SUV, it's "his SUV ran the red light"........What are we, stupid? SUVs (just like guns) have never killed anybody it's the driver that did it.

If you don't like SUVs, just wait it out. When I was a kid, there were no cell phones. There were no "soccer moms" (isn't that that game they play in Europe?). But there were vehicles full of screaming kids, that were to be avoided. They were called stationwagons, and my generation was raised in the back of 'em. My whole generation swore we would never buy one. But eventually, we needed one, so the minivan was invented. When I was a kid, vans were cool. (serious make-out potential). Soon, there was one in every driveway in Suburbia. Eventually, minivans got the same reputations that stationwagons had. Nobody raised in the '80s/'90s will ever buy a mini van, but now they need them, so SUVs have become the stationwagon du jour. Believe me, no kid raised since the late '90s will ever buy an SUV. Soon, only people that have to tow stuff while carrying people will drive them. So be calm. Just wait for it.

There are way more people out there that hate motorcycles, than there are people that hate SUVs. Let's not challenge them with this "they ought to be outlawed" stuff.

Allan
06-22-2005, 01:20 PM
If you have a need for a SUV, mabey you have a big family, take friends camping often, have a trailer or a boat, live in a horiable snowy climet and want a family vehicle with 4x4 they are a compleatly legimatate vehicle. Anyone who buys a SUV just because its hip, while I feel sorry from them that they can only find self worth about themselves by what kind of car they drive. Im also betting that these people are prime for being bad drivers as all they care about is themselves. So driveing around a vehicle that weights twice as much as a car, has half the agility, and is much harder to see other motorists is just asking for trouble. Java is right, SUV are not the problem, its the significant percentage of them that are assholes. Before you get all bent out of shape I said "significant percentate" not all not even the majority, but enough that you notice them.


I am getting a little tired of the whole "evil SUV" thing. Every night on the news, if it's any other kind of vehicle, it's "Mr.Smith ran the red light...... but if it's an SUV, it's "his SUV ran the red light"........What are we, stupid? SUVs (just like guns) have never killed anybody it's the driver that did it.

If you don't like SUVs, just wait it out. When I was a kid, there were no cell phones. There were no "soccer moms" (isn't that that game they play in Europe?). But there were vehicles full of screaming kids, that were to be avoided. They were called stationwagons, and my generation was raised in the back of 'em. My whole generation swore we would never buy one. But eventually, we needed one, so the minivan was invented. When I was a kid, vans were cool. (serious make-out potential). Soon, there was one in every driveway in Suburbia. Eventually, minivans got the same reputations that stationwagons had. Nobody raised in the '80s/'90s will ever buy a mini van, but now they need them, so SUVs have become the stationwagon du jour. Believe me, no kid raised since the late '90s will ever buy an SUV. Soon, only people that have to tow stuff while carrying people will drive them. So be calm. Just wait for it.

There are way more people out there that hate motorcycles, than there are people that hate SUVs. Let's not challenge them with this "they ought to be outlawed" stuff.

But did you ever see movie stars, pro athleties or other celebrities rideing around in minivans or station wagons during there era? Yes they are the evolution of the utility vehicle station wagon>minivan>suv. But unlike the minivan and the station wagon they have the pop/hip apeal. I have no problem with people who buy a SUV because they need it. Its the giant waste of resources and saftey so that somebody can feel cool that bothers me.

That is my problem with the Hummer line of vehciles, specifically the H2 and now the H3. The HMMWV looks the way it does because it was designed to do a job and that is how it came out looking, compleatly form following function. Yes the civilian models are pretty much impratical for anything but similar comercial security needs or off road enthusiasts. The H2/3 are just dressed up GMC trucks so they can look tougher than they really are and so the drivers can get something out of the thousands of dollers they spent over a similar configured GMC truck, more self worth.

But I guess what it boils down to is im sick of our ever growing materialistic MTV society and SUV are a big easy target.

Paduan
06-22-2005, 02:17 PM
A comment, regarding the notion that "surrounding oneself with a big steel vehicle" is somehow safer:

(1) In any crash, there is more than one collision. When the vehicle suuudenly stops, the occupants of the vehicle will then have a collision with some part of the interior of the vehicle, unless thrown out which we won't address here. Then, when the body suddenly stops, the internal organs have a collision with the body "shell" and whatever surface the body impacted. Then there is what is refered to as a "contra coup" collision of the internal organs bounce back and strike the opposite side of the body "shell". Frequently, there is an additional rebound of the whole body in a reverse or deflection direction, which can result in a whole new series of internal organ crashes.

(2) The bigger the vehicle, the more opportunity for internal occupant deflections and rebounds.

(3) All that steel and plastic that comprises the cage becomes a twisted, jagged knife-edged maze, within which all that bouncing and flying about takes place. This is where the Paramedic term "bonegrinder" comes from.

(4) Large, high centered vehicles have a bad habit of rolling over, during which arms, heads and sometimes entire bodies leave the "protective" cage.

(5) 4-wheel drive does nothing to help during a crash. 4-wheel drive will not keep you out of a ditch, it will only help get you out of a ditch after the fact. (Lots of people think that 4-wheel drive is safer on ice and snow. The tires don't understand 4-wheel drive, and just keep on sliding. If anything, 4-wheel drive lures the hapless ignorant into driving faster.)

(6) SUVs don't have any stronger or thicker metal than other vehicles. It's all paper thin stuff, designed just to look good. You want protection, get a Caterpillar D9.

(7) Seatbelts do provide additional protection, but they are like helmets. No guarantees, and not everybody uses them. (Interesting thoughts about legal requirements here????)

The argument that SUVs provide better crash protection may be misleading. Once again, there all kinds of studies and stats out there that can argue all kinds of opinions about crashes. My comments are based only upon direct, personal experience and washing literally gallons of other peoples blood off myself.

Missy B
06-22-2005, 02:22 PM
Great post, Paduan. When I read in someone else's post about the protection of the SUV, I didnt know how to put your answer into words.

Your post is a great application of knowing the limitations of one's vehicle.

Paduan
06-22-2005, 02:38 PM
Your post is a great application of knowing the limitations of one's vehicle.
No matter what vehicle you drive, it's important to know what it will do or not do for you when the idiot pulls a lefty across your path.

Wookie
06-22-2005, 03:23 PM
Good post Paduan,

The SUV only gives a perceived sense of security due to its size. Yes, it's very functional for those that need it, but many buy them because they are marketed as being safe due to their size.

You also have to factor in the increased weight, longer stopping distances (which can continue even after hitting another vehicle), lower handling abilities, decreased visibility, etc. that a SUV has when thinking about safety and security.

My wife was riding with a friend in their Excursion and they were stopped at a stop light. A kid, maybe 4th or 5th grade walked in front of the SUV across the cross walk and completely disappeared in front of the SUV until getting to the other side. That's kind of scary if you ask me.

I've also sat in H2's and the visibility out of those was downright scary. I couldn't see anything in any direction. Even if I were uber wealthy, I wouldn't own one of those. Nothing but compensating for inadequacies there.

The 4 wheel drive addition is one that I laugh at a lot. Here in the Portland, OR area when it snows the town stops, but you continue to see these guys in their 4WD vehicles flying down the road at or near the speed limit, thinking they have an advantage in the snow with 4WD and it will keep them from crashing. Of course the most prevelant type of vehicle being pulled out of the ditch is a 4WD after our small snow storms here.

4WD only helps you accelerate in slick conditions (which just gets you in trouble faster); everything else is the same as far as cornering speed, stopping distances, etc. when compared to a 2WD car.

Anyway, I think we have reached the stage of :horse: with the conversation considering SUV's