What is it about... [Archive] - Beginnerbikers.org

Derick

01-10-2005, 10:35 PM

Mer

01-10-2005, 10:42 PM

I ridden a couple of times without a helmet and I did not like it. I was only going 30-40 mph and my eyes where fluttering so bad from the wind I could hardly see. I felt pretty vulnerable too. Maybe if I hadn't worn a helmet from the very beginning I'd feel different. But I've had too many "things" hit me in the helmet/visor that I'll NEVER go without one again. :shock:

Derick

01-10-2005, 10:45 PM

But I've had too many "things" hit me in the helmet/visor that I'll NEVER go without one again. :shock:

Exactly, that was my main fear too, I've had some good sized rocks peg me in the helmet, that if I hadn't been wearing one, I would have been taken out....and probably wrecked.

MikeInSLC

01-10-2005, 10:54 PM

The only riding I've done sans brain bucket was a max 10mph jaunt up and down an empty back road trying to listen for a funny noise (found it, killed it by the way!) . I hated every second of it. And yes....I've enough rocks and bugs and stuff in the face shield to make moving at any velocity without something more solid than sunglasses in front of my eyes seem nuts.

flstc2003

01-10-2005, 11:04 PM

Here in Ca. helmets are the law, I wear a shorty w/ Wiley-x glasses that have foam eye cups they stop the tear up factor. I have been hit in the face a few times by ufos and have done fine.

I never wore a helmet before the law was passed except when in endruo events. I used to think of it like planning to crash. I thought; you put on all this leather and plastic and frame sliders and crash bars and start to feel safe and cozy the next thing you know you're belly sliding down the road.
I have more to lose now and wear some gear but still can't do ATGATT.

Bob

24/7

01-11-2005, 04:03 AM

My first day with the FF helmet saved me. A very large stone bouncing off a truck at least 100 yards in front of me, popped up and ricocheted off my brand new shield, ruining it. That would have been my left eye. Thank the powers that be, for sparing me. - Al

Cindy

01-11-2005, 06:13 AM

I live 16 miles from Florida, so it is nothing to see bikes pull over at the state line and take off their helmets.

Last week on our ride down to Key West most of the bikers were helmetless and gloveless. It is not the way I ride, but I respect their right to ride sans gear if they want to.

Cindy

BillNC1

01-11-2005, 06:36 AM

Why does someone elses personal choice bother you so much?

HotFix

01-11-2005, 07:07 AM

MikeInSLC

01-11-2005, 07:15 AM

It's all about varying levels of risk....what you'll accept....while I'll look at someone riding without a helmet and see natural selection waiting to happen (why protect a brain that won't protect itself?), many people in cars look at me on two wheels (regardless of gear) and think the same.

Someone else chosing not to wear a helmet doesn't really bother me....don't expect me to think highly of them based on their choice, but I don't dwell on it. What bothers me is when some ABATEaholic tries to fight a helmet law with the insane "helmets cause neck injuries" BS or some other drivel. That garbage may affect a new riders choice of gear, and that bothers me.

PARider

01-11-2005, 07:27 AM

I ride with a half helmet and sunglasses all the time. I could never get comfortable in a full face helmet.

I have been hit a couple times in the face by large insects, but nothing major.

It is all about your personal "risk propensity", or how much risk you are willing to accept as a person.

I'm willing to accept the risk of wearing a half-helmet. Others are willing to accept the risk of wearing no helmet (ie Indian Larry). Others will not venture out without a full face and all the gear.

Whatever is comfortable with you is comfortable with me. Just don't tell me what to do and we'll be fine!

speeddemon

01-11-2005, 08:26 AM

I say keep your laws off my body!

:wink:

Seriously, I feel naked without a helmet, jacket, and gloves. I just got riding pants for Christmas and I keep reminding myself to put them on. I don't wear them to work because they wrinkle up my kahkis (don't get Fieldsheer Titanium Air Pants for over pants).

I wonder how many people feel pressure not to wear a helmet in a state that doesn't require one?

Fix--

Check out some of the wrinkle/stain resistant Dockers. My BF has a pair and they really work. Plus, I bet falling off the bike would really wrinkle your ensemble! :P

Lezbert

01-11-2005, 09:26 AM

I think the issue comes down to legislating personal freedoms, and that's why ABATE is getting involved. I believe a group can advocate safety while acknowledging that it's a choice.

I wear MTGMTT, and I am a helmet advocate. I will always wear one, and no passenger will EVER ride pillion on my bike without one. My bike. My rules. By the same token, it's your bike and your rules too. You can wear what you want on your bike, and I am not going to think any less of you. By the same token, I don't expect you to think any less of me for choosing to wear one.

southernspirit

01-11-2005, 09:46 AM

I wear one all the time now, but before I got back into riding a couple years ago, I hardly wore one at all. I even rode a few times without a helmet 2 years ago. :oops: I do believe it's a personal choice to wear one or not and your gonna have advocates for both sides. I personally wouldnt go without one now and I dont condemn anyone that doesnt wear one.

wabbit

01-11-2005, 10:09 AM

I never wore a helmet before the law was passed except when in endruo events. I used to think of it like planning to crash.
Bob

Not: "Planning to crash" Planning to Live!

I think the arguments for repealing helmet laws are pretty weak.
The best one I heard is: "I want a government that governs less"
Thats sort of like saying I want a hospital that heals less,
Or I want a Mechanic that fixes less.

wabbit

01-11-2005, 10:18 AM

I live in Texas. Probably the capitol of looking like an idiot on a bike. I have actually heard of people driving into Texas and stopping at the border to take their helmet off and strap it to the bike.

I havent felt any pressure to ride without a helmet from riders. I have probably ridden with about 30 different riders all of whom were wearing helmets.

I dont think I would ride with a large group of non helmet wearers mostly because I would leave them behind in the corners :D

The only 2 people that have ever said anything about my helmet are my wifes boss and one of her friends. MY wifes boss rode around as a kid on a scooter and did a lot of stupid stuff like getting on the highway on a 30 mph scooter with no helmet. A couple of times she has tried to make me feel stupid for wearing a helmet. I try to explain to her that my bike is capable of much more than 30mph and she got lucky she never got hurt. She doesnt listen, so who's the stupid one now. The other person is one of her friends who had a honda 919 and rode it without a helmet. He was coming home drunk from a bar one night and lost it on an off-ramp. He managed to get a ride home, but when he came back for his bike the next day it was stolen. He only had liability insurance and he bought the bike new on his credit card. He is still paying for the bike he doesnt have and the insurance company didnt believe him that the bike was stolen.

The other thing that bugs me is that because of all the idiot bikers out there doing stupid stuff on bikes and not heading the advice of websites like this one, I have to spend 30 mins explain to each of my familiy memebrs how I am a safe rider and I took the MSF course, and read profficient motorcycling etc.

Listen to me, I must have gotten up on the wrong side of the bed today :twisted:

Bealzabubba

01-11-2005, 10:24 AM

I think the arguments for repealing helmet laws are pretty weak. The best one I heard is: "I want a government that governs less"
Thats sort of like saying I want a hospital that heals less,
Or I want a Mechanic that fixes less.

They're not weak at all. Wearing a helmet or not should be a choice -- just like wearing any other personal protective equipment. IMHO, the government should not be in the business of telling me what personal risks I can and cannot take.

I happen to be one of those people who prefers a government that governs less. I don't need the legislature deciding what is and isn't an acceptable level of personal risk for me to take when I'm riding.

(You're analogy, BTW, just plain doesn't work. :wink: )

FWIW, I live in a state that had a mandatory helmet law for about a year before it was unceremoniously repealed after strong protest from the state's bikers. I also wear a helmet almost every time I ride because I choose to wear one...

wabbit

01-11-2005, 10:28 AM

BillNC1

01-11-2005, 11:28 AM

Would you like the government to tell you that safe sex is manditory? You must wear a condom when havivg sex, no exceptions. ATGATT

RussXL

01-11-2005, 12:22 PM

In that case lets repeal hard hat laws in work areas, and seat belt laws.

We could even repeal laws regarding child safety seats. Shouldnt we as parent have the right to choose when we want to buckle our kids in?

I just playing of course. I know this is a no-win argument.
I'm gonna go ride now.

The difference is that in work areas, the employer is responsible for the safety of his employees, not his own.

But I'm all for repealing seat belt laws as well as helmet laws... And I'm an ATGATT rider myself.

I also believe in personal responsiblity and choice.

Bealzabubba

01-11-2005, 12:28 PM

In that case lets repeal hard hat laws in work areas, and seat belt laws.

I'm not entirely out of agreemnt with you on some of the OSHA regulations... Some are necessary (mostly to protect the workers from employers) and some aren't. Seat belt laws protect people other than the ones wearing them. Helmet laws don't.

We could even repeal laws regarding child safety seats. Shouldnt we as parent have the right to choose when we want to buckle our kids in?

Different kettle of fish altogether. While I'm not opposed to parents' rights, there's a stronger case to be made for Society's incentive to keep minors reasonably safe. (And there's no question that kids are much safer in child seats and/or wearing safety belts as appropriate.)

I just playing of course. I know this is a no-win argument.

Sure is -- 'cuz there's no rational argument against it. :wink:

(I'd ride now, too, if it weren't from the @#%^& snow...)

Wolfie

01-11-2005, 12:42 PM

I wear ATGATT.
I have ridden without before , shorts ,tee shirt,sneakers, and sunglasses. I didn't like it.
I think it kept me off bikes for a long time.

Do I feel comfy cozy and safe with my gear on? Not really. I don't feel that way when driving a car either.
There are too many uncontrolled variables involved in driving/riding.
I do think that folks that feel too safe and cozy in their preferred mode of transport are the cause of or are involved in accidents more than an alert driver/rider .

I think I would alway support a riders decision to wear gear.
I don't think I should have to support a decision not to.

mark.

EAGERRICK

01-12-2005, 06:57 PM

Well.I do both,,I will put a helmet on if I feel the lest bit uncomfortable.I live in Ohio (no helmet law) And I like riding without a helmet,,done it all my life.But I do wear one,in certain cases.Group riding,or interstates,I will sometimes put one on.I have a friend that will die with one on,,tells me all the time how unsafe it is,,yet he'll go out and lay who knows who and never wear a condome,,safe don't think so.I don't feel like and idiot for not wearing a helmet,I ride to suit me,,I want to be comfortable,aware and thats what you have to do,,,Ride Your Own Ride,,Rick

BanditnDan

01-12-2005, 10:57 PM

NOT wearing a helmet?! I see SO many bikers around here not wearing helmets, along with the lobbying to get the helmet laws replealed, and NOW members of ABATE, who are "supposed" to be all about safety, are pitching a fit because Chicago is starting to implement helmet laws when you're riding throughout the city. So what the heck is the big deal!?

As far as Chicago goes, ABATE is involved as there is a STATE law that in it's wording contains something along these lines " No city shall pass a law requiring helmet use within their jurisdiction" ABATE is simply going after those politicians who are putting themselves above the law, or should they be exempt from following the law?

I for one will NEVER go without a helmet.

And I am glad that you get to make that choice. And that is why there should be no law but it should be a choice. Should they put a limit on HP output? Why does one need a bike that has 160 hp and does 180+, I know of no roads in the US that allows those speeds. Should not all bikes and cars have governors on them, most (not all) states have speed limits of 65-70 mph. Does not greater speed kill (in any vehicle, not just bikes) more than say not going more than 35? Does being in a accident without a helmet present a better chance of death or more severe injury? Yes to both my friend, let's get the goverment to legislate our life in every area, shall we? Personally, I wear a helmet as my state requires one, but when in states with no such restriction I often ride without, my choice, not yours not the gov, just mine.

As for some of the other things posted here, I'll leave it at what some have said the arguement can't be won, so respect my choice to not wear and I'll respect yours to wear all the gear you want. It's served me well to wear what I do for 30+ years, if it kills me tomorrow I can live with that. I made the choice and I paid the price, pure and simple. And please no insurance comeback, I'd bet I'm cheaper to bury than put back together. :?

BTW Mikeslc, if one wears a 1/2 or 3/4 helmet does this mean they have 1/2 or 3/4 of a brain to protect? Or should be a little higher than the ones with no helmet in the natrual thinning selection line? IMHO, comments like this rankle me much like your being upset with the abate spine injury try to repeal helmet laws. They are both kind of pointless with no study done to determine if helmets cause neck injuries or if people who don't wear a lid are less intelligent than those who do.

Derick

01-12-2005, 11:23 PM

BanditnDan

01-12-2005, 11:28 PM

I wear ATGATT.

I think I would alway support a riders decision to wear gear.
I don't think I should have to support a decision not to.

mark.

No one is asking you to "support" a decision not to, so you should not have to do so. Most folks I know who ride without lids only ask that you respect their right to make a choice (when given on this subject) as I am sure that you would like to be respected for ATGATT and not made fun of as some do. I respect it, wear what ya want, shorts to the full leather with armor, makes no diff to me, just don't try to ride my bike(s) :lol:

BanditnDan

01-12-2005, 11:44 PM

I for one will never preach to someone about doing what *I* think is right, or what *I* decide to do for myself...those types of people should just be slapped. On the other hand, I dont understand why there is such a big fuss. Laws are created for a reason, no? Don't answer that...but we aren't gathering support because we dont feel like we should stop at a stoplight are we? So where is the difference in the helmet laws. If you choose to ride a motorcycle, then you also choose to obey all the laws (helmet states included) that mandate the ride....

Ya lost me on this one, comparing traffic laws to mandated saftey equipment? As far as obeying the laws when I ride a bike, I do, least as far as helmets go. But curiously, my states law reads that I must wear a helmet approved from a list signed off on by the Secretary of Transportation, but when you inquire about the list guess what, there is not one as that would put the state at risk of big lawsuits since they say these are "safe" helmets. So how do I comply with the law as written when there is no list to follow? Kinda kills that mandate huh? (PS, it's a great tool to use in court, works every time a biker gets a ticket for riding sans lids.)

And your arguement as to I agree to obey all the laws is flawed, I recall signing no legal document when I have bought any motor vehicle that I would never break any law, helmets included. And most traffic laws esp speeding are for generating revenue for the locale involved, not because they care for your safety. If they did, go back to what I presented before, why do we have Dodge Magnums, Hayabusas, Ford Lightening P/u R6's the list is endless of vehicles that are more than capable of hurtiing/killing onesself, why are they not regulated to a certain out put.?

I'll give you a short answer, because 200+ million people would be up in arms about infrigment on their "rights" and not the 100's of thousands of bikers who belong to AMA, AbAte etc and try to help all riders and not just on helmets. Have you asked your congressman why if you are injured riding a M/c that your health insurance is not obligated to pay like they would if it happened in a car? This is just one of many laws on the books against a minority section of the vehicle world. Or do you agree that for our SAFETY, power output of vehicles should be limited?

Why do we not require helmet use in cars? I would bet 1000's of folks die of head injuries in car accidents too?

I'll protect my self my way, I need no one to do it for me.

Derick

01-12-2005, 11:47 PM

BanditnDan

01-13-2005, 09:31 AM

I am curious.....only due to the extreme retardedness of some of your laws, what state do you live in!?

Why do we not require helmet use in cars? I would bet 1000's of folks die of head injuries in car accidents too?

i've done it! for about a day after i first bought my helmet, i was bored and felt like doing something that people would like at me twice for.

I'll protect my self my way, I need no one to do it for me.

roll on my friend, roll on.

I live in the wonderful state of MD. I've often thought of wearing a helmet and sticking my head in the wind when I have to cage it, would love the reactions it would cause. :? :wink:

And I agree, no matter what or how you ride or what you wear, roll on and roll safe.

banditjules

01-13-2005, 10:28 AM

the only thing i can say everyone has a right to choose. oldtimers point about head injuries to drivers makes sense and is certainly something i hadn't considered i choose to wear a helmet and all gear. is it gonna save me in every situation...maybe...maybe not, but people have to realize the damage that can be done first hand sometimes...when skin hits pavement even at 20 mph your talking seious damage, brain injury, and possibly death. the death part isn't difficult-your done. it is the surviving part that gets trickier-the question you have to ask yourself is can you live with that decision and those types of injuries. that is also a question we ask ourselves when we choose to ride a motorcycle period. having had (in a weird sort of way) the dumb luck of crashing hard in a bicycle race doing 25 mph and loosing lots of skin (the bicycle helmet saved my life), i learned a healthy repect for gear on a motorcycle. it happened three months before i got a motorcycle so my perspective was greatly changed had i not been in the crash. guess what i am trying to say is try to think in those terms and then make your decision. then that is the right decision for you.
julie
who still wears the scars but still loves two wheels!

LoDownSinner

01-13-2005, 10:55 AM

If you choose to ride a motorcycle, then you also choose to obey all the laws (helmet states included) that mandate the ride....

No argument with that. But as Americans, we have a right - more like a responsibility - to strive toward getting laws we think are wrong taken off the books.

This trend of legislating everything in sight is in danger of making the concept of personal responsibility nothing but a dim memory. Look at all of the stupid things people do and try to blame others for. It's high time we took a turn in the other direction, and starting making people responsible for their own actions, be it operating a motor vehicle in a safe manner or anything else they choose to do.

BillNC1

01-13-2005, 12:42 PM

Ok, Here it is. You want max safety, Stay in bed. Life is chances from the time you get up until you go to bed. You make choices all day. What's right for you may not be right for someone else. What is going to happen when they say riding a motorcycle is too dangerous? The beginning of that has already happened. Lawmakers say it's too dangerous to ride without a helmet, so you have to wear a helmet. If the same lawmakers say in general that motorcycles are TOO dangerous, can thy pass a law against riding. Just a question. It won't happen because it's too much money in it. The dollar is what controls it all.

wabbit

01-13-2005, 12:50 PM

You'll get bed sores if you stay in bed and that will lead to infection. Not too mention the health risks involved in not getting adequate exercise. Muscles will atrophy as well.

:mrgreen: Staying in bed isnt all that safe :mrgreen:

Did I mention this was a no-win topic :lol:

See ya on the road.

Lezbert

01-13-2005, 03:23 PM

I live in the wonderful state of MD. I've often thought of wearing a helmet and sticking my head in the wind when I have to cage it, would love the reactions it would cause. :? :wink:

And I agree, no matter what or how you ride or what you wear, roll on and roll safe.

Considering how nuts the drivers are here, I've often thought of wearing my helmet when caging it in traffic. I figure people would think, "She's NUTS! Give her room." :D On a related note, I can't count the number of times I've gone someplace carrying my helmet and wearing gear and someone's asked me, "Do you have a bike?" I just smile and say, "Nah. I'm just a really bad driver :lol:

I know I'm rehashing some of what I've said before, as well as some of what others have said, but here are some random thoughts I had while reading this thread:

Some laws regarding public safety, such as traffic lights/stop signs and the like, are necessary. In effect, they can help keep Person A from killing law-abiding Person B on the road. Helmet laws serve to protect Person A from Person A. There are those who think that Person A should have the right to assume personal responsibility for the decision to wear or not wear a lid, which doesn't affect the safety of other drivers.

Choosing to ride a motorcycle doesn't really mean choosing to or agreeing to abide by laws. However, as adults, it is a reasonable expectation that we be aware of those laws and the consequences of breaking them. I know I've taken defensive driving a few times in my driving career, and I've paid for a ticket or two as well. I didn't grumble (much). I know I was speeding, and I got caught.

I have my reasons for wearing gear, just as others have reasons for not wearing gear. With very little exception, it's no skin off my nose if someone else rides lidless. They are making a choice that affects their own safety. Until someone else's choice affects my safety, I don't think I or govt. should have a say in the matter.

Just a couple of pennies...

BanditnDan

01-13-2005, 09:35 PM

"I have my reasons for wearing gear, just as others have reasons for not wearing gear. With very little exception, it's no skin off my nose if someone else rides lidless. They are making a choice that affects their own safety. Until someone else's choice affects my safety, I don't think I or govt. should have a say in the matter."

Very well said, I hope everyone takes a moment to consider these words.

rpminmn

01-13-2005, 10:38 PM

Personally, I always wear a helmet.

When I came back to motorcycling last summer, I looked around for some info on helmet saftey, and was glad to come across BB early on. But there are other viewpoints being expressed as well. For example, take a look at this artilcle:

http://www.mcgregorint.com/bikers/Abate%20Mensa.htm

It didn't change my mind, but it did give me something to think about.

-bob

HDSam

01-13-2005, 11:12 PM

LoDownSinner
This trend of legislating everything in sight is in danger of making the concept of personal responsibility nothing but a dim memory. Look at all of the stupid things people do and try to blame others for. It's high time we took a turn in the other direction, and starting making people responsible for their own actions, be it operating a motor vehicle in a safe manner or anything else they choose to do.

Well put, LDS!

MikeInSLC

01-13-2005, 11:24 PM

It didn't change my mind, but it did give me something to think about.

To your credit, Bob.

Watch a MotoGP race. Watch someone come off the bike and either land, roll or slide on their head. I bet they wish they weren't wearing that useless helmet! How many neck injuries in MotoGP...not many. Yes, Kato suffered neck injuries in his fatal crash...but if he wasn't wearing a helmet he probably would have died on the track instead of two weeks later. He hit a barrier at 120 or so mph.

Of course...if you hop on a busa and tag a stationary object at 160 mph, you're probably not going to make it, regardless of what's on your head. The mention of that scenario at least added some comedy to the article. But that's not the common motorcycle accident. More common will be a glancing blow or a slide. Go outside, lay your cheek on the pavement and drag it for a couple feet. Wanna do that for 20 yards at 20mph?

Don't want to wear a helmet? Fine
Want to oppose helmet laws on the basis of personal freedom? Fine
Don't spew the "helmets are unsafe" crap....

HDSam

01-13-2005, 11:43 PM

The article states:

"Some reasonably foreseeable impacts may exceed the helmet's capability to protect against severe injury or death." What is a "reasonably foreseeable" impact? Any impact around 14 miles per hour or greater. Motorcycle helmets are tested by being dropped on an anvil from a height of six feet, the equivalent of a 13.66-mph impact.

If you ride at speeds less than 14 mph and are involved only in accidents involving stationary objects, you=92re golden. A typical motorcycle accident, however, would be a biker traveling at, say, 30 mph, and being struck by a car making a left turn at, maybe, 15 mph. That's an effective cumulative impact of 45 mph. Assume the biker is helmet-clad, and that he is struck directly on the head. The helmet reduces the blow to an impact of 31.34 mph.

Possibly in over my head but I don't necessarily believe this is true. The fact that the helmet is tested at 14mph does not mean the helmet suffers total protective failure at 14mph. Wouldn't this have to be worked out though some sort of mathematical curve?

A minor point:
The writer mentions that the cumulative impact in his example is 45mph. It would be if it were a head-on collision, but the writer clearly states that the car is turning and striking the bike, therefore it's a broadside hit, rather than a head-on hit. The force of impact should be much closer to 15mph than 45mph, wouldn't it?
I realize that this one point does not invalidate the rest of the article, but if this is wrong, what else is?

LoDownSinner

01-14-2005, 12:41 AM

When did ABATE change their name? They used to be American Bikers Against Totalitarian Enactments.

I'm sorry, but a lot of the stuff in that article seems like 'junk science.'

That bit about the neck injuries is just plain silly. We're supposed to believe that a fatal neck injury to a helmeted rider wouldn't have caused enough trauma to the head of a helmetless rider to be fatal? Give me a break. You know why you don't hear about helmetless riders getting as many neck injuries? Corpses don't complain about sore necks.

If people don't want to wear helmets, they need to change the laws, not spread misinformation.

Educate. Don't legislate. There are enough laws on the books right now that it's nearly impossible to live for a week in the United States without doing something punishable by a fine or imprisonment. And the sad thing is, the US is one of the freest countries on the face of the earth.

Edited for typos...

MikeInSLC

01-14-2005, 06:37 AM

The article states:

Possibly in over my head but I don't necessarily believe this is true. The fact that the helmet is tested at 14mph does not mean the helmet suffers total protective failure at 14mph. Wouldn't this have to be worked out though some sort of mathematical curve?

Not over your head at all...you're absolutely right....that scenario is at best overly simplified, at worst, just plain unrealistic and misleading. Unless of course the car jumped up in the air and hit you in the head only at a closing speed of 45mph. As soon as I know that that scenario is the main danger I face on the road, I'll leave the helmet at home. This article was written to try to lay a seed in the minds of an audience full of Forbes FYI readers....not a body of experts in the subject....Facts are of minimal importance when you're trying to support your cause....

longislandbob

01-14-2005, 07:55 AM

I for one will never preach to someone about doing what *I* think is right, or what *I* decide to do for myself...those types of people should just be slapped.

I agree. That's why I'm sitting here asking myself why you started this thred? The first post looked preachy to me. And it covered both topics you said you'd never preach about.

Bill,

I loved the safe sex post. Don't forget the padded headboard. I'd wear my helmet durring sex but the visor fogs. Come to think of it, that might not be such a bad thing if it was someone I picked up at closing time.

Bob

banditjules

01-14-2005, 08:30 AM

I'd wear my helmet durring sex but the visor fogs. Come to think of it, that might not be such a bad thing if it was someone I picked up at closing time.

Bob

Bob you mad man!
LMAO-foggy googles need foggier visors!
julie

MikeInSLC

01-14-2005, 08:50 AM

[quote=dboogie2288] Come to think of it, that might not be such a bad thing if it was someone I picked up at closing time.

I knew there was a market for the mirrored visor with the mirror on the inside!

:)

Claybuster

01-14-2005, 08:58 AM

The bogus neck-injury argument is just as lame as the "helmetless riders make me pay more for insurance" argument. Neither of them are supported by any kind of facts.

That being said, let's put facts aside for a moment (or at least manipulate them a bit) for the sake of making a point about legislating choice. Let's assume, just for this exercise, that a solid scientific study DID conclude that helmets cause neck injuries (please don't get hung up on this, it is secondary to the point I'm trying to make). In an effort to keep motorcyclists safe, and protect us from ourselves, legislatures across the country began passing laws that BANNED the use of helmets while riding a motorcycle. If you are a rider like myself, who prefers to always wear a helmet, you would be outraged, no? What right does the government have to tell me that I am not allowed to wear a helmet when I ride my motorcycle? Shouldn't that be my choice?

Just a little mental fun to get us thinking! Personally, I support choice, and at the same time I always wear a helmet, even in free states. I enjoy being able to decide for myself.
-L-

longislandbob

01-14-2005, 09:29 AM

Mer

01-14-2005, 09:31 AM

ROFLMAO http://www.twtex.com/images/smiles/icon_crackup.gif

Java

01-14-2005, 09:43 AM

I generally try to stay out of this one, but here I go.
I always wear one, even when I don't have to. Let's face it, you are safer wearing one, then when you're not wearing one. I believe because of the whole big bugs/gravel thrown up by trucks/ eyes tearing-up behind sunglasses thing, that helmets can keep accidents from happening.
I believe in an individual's freedom to choose not to wear one. I'll fight shoulder to shoulder with you to maintain (or get back) that freedom.
Like Mike said, you can tell a newbie all about the freedom, and the sun on your forehead, and the wind in your hair. That's great. BUT do NOT fill a newbie's head with utter crap about how helmets are dangerous. Anyone that says they restrict you're peripheral vision, hasn't worn one designed during the last 20 years. Anyone saying they restrict your hearing has never actually worn one.
I wholeheartedly believe that a biker should be allowed that choice. But I think it's down right criminal to use misinformation, half-truthes, and lies in order to sway new riders to their side.
Helmet laws suck. But let's stick to the "this is America, where's my freedom?" arguement, OK?

rpminmn

01-14-2005, 10:03 AM

Don't want to wear a helmet? Fine
Want to oppose helmet laws on the basis of personal freedom? Fine
Don't spew the "helmets are unsafe" crap....

The point is that newbies (like me) are getting their information from a wide variety of sources, including stuff like the old Forbes article, which is a magazine that's certainly far more visible than sites like this one.

If this group really wants to help the new rider out, I think it's far better to acknowledge that there are other viewpoints, and then address them (perhaps a FAQ), not just dismiss them out of hand without examing the facts (which I continue to struggle to find). It's too easy to succumb to a "group think" mentality, no matter what group you align yourself with.

-bob

rpminmn

01-14-2005, 10:26 AM

I'm sorry, but a lot of the stuff in that article seems like 'junk science.'

that was my impression as well. But I haven't researched the facts enough to know for sure. My brain is one of two favorite organs so I wear a helmet. Right now I feel better when I do.

Educate. Don't legislate.

exactly! and education mean addressing a lot of extreme stuff being thrown around by folks on both sides of the issue.

For example, according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), states that have repealed helmet laws have a increase in fatalities. What is not clear (at least I haven't seen the data) is whether it's because ridership has increased because of relaxed helmet laws. If there are more riders on the road, there will be more accidents.This is an argument being thrown around among many clubs/groups. I would like to be able to cite a study that addresses this and other issues directly. In the meantime, I'll continue to wear my helmet.

-bob

(edited for spelling)

Wolfie

01-14-2005, 10:30 AM

The group think part is the hardest to overcome.
It isn't helped by M/C orgainzations which , in an effort not to alienate Any potential member, will be wishy washy on 'freedom' issues.
Ride your own ride is a great recommendation. It covers all bases and opinions, is subject to endless interpretations, but will almost alway get nods of agreement from eveyone.
Then they turn around and mutter comments to themselves that match the 'group think' they have bought into. Its human nature..

I wonder if they have anti-fogging lens inserts for beer goggles. :P

mark.

MikeInSLC

01-14-2005, 10:49 AM

Here is a link to a short online paper from the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety regarding helmet use. Includes footnotes to references for claims. Of course, there may be some bias here, but any organization that will go to the trouble of putting out the information has a stake in the issue, so bias will be impossible to avoid.

http://www.iihs.org/safety_facts/qanda/helmet_use.htm

Here's a link to a counter point of view, the Goldstien study

http://www.bikersrights.com/statistics/goldstein/goldstein.html

Here's a link to an NHTSA pdf paper on helmet laws, with sources footnoted

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/people/injury/New-fact-sheet03/MotorcycleHelmet.pdf

Thought this might give folks a place to start reading if so desired...

rpminmn

01-14-2005, 11:11 AM

Here is a link to a short online paper from the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety regarding helmet use.
...
Thought this might give folks a place to start reading if so desired...

Thanks!!!

I hadn't seen the IIHS paper before. Very informative.

I suggest that these links be placed on the main site somewhere, e.g., links or faq.

-bob

anthony

01-14-2005, 03:22 PM

That's the first time I've read that Forbes article. I know that others have already mentioned some of this, but I feel the need to correct some of that pseudo-science...

- Like LDS mentioned, I'm almost certain that any impact that would cause a fatal neck injury would have also killed a helmetless rider. Interesting rationale for not wearing a helmet. I'm not sure I want Dr. Charles Campbell as my surgeon. Call me crazy, but I'm sure that my bare head is more fragile than my neck.

- The 15mph impact argument is mostly bogus. Not every head impact is head-on (pun intended) with a stationary object. Lots of times people just whack their heads on the pavement after falling off the bike (usually less than 6 feet high). That's probably why helmets are tested by being dropped from only about 6 feet. Once your head is on the ground, the helmet switches from "impact" mode to "protect me from the cheese grater" mode.

- Interesting statistic about states with no helmet laws having fewer fatalities per 100 accidents. Too bad they didn't actually mention statistics about helmet usage. To their credit, helmet usage isn't really relevant to their point (oddly enough). They're only concerned about the effect of the law on fatal accidents.

Anyway, I used to be fully on the side of helmet laws, but have done a 180 on that position recently. The turning point for me was realizing that there is no evidence that injured unhelmeted riders are a bigger drain on the insurance or taxpayer money than injured helmeted riders. (EDIT: I should say that there was evidence on both sides, and nothing certain enough to sway me towards one side or the other.) I'm not to the point where I'll be an activist against them, but give me some time. :)

Also, kudos to everyone here for keeping it civil! No threat of locking anything, and we're all acting like grownups. Nice! :D

BanditnDan

01-14-2005, 03:52 PM

. BUT do NOT fill a newbie's head with utter crap about how helmets are dangerous. ?

But sadly, those who wish to impose their wishes on us routinely trot out the unsubtantiated crap about how those who ride without one drive up the insurance rates and are a burden on the medical system due to the extensive brain injuries suffered. To the best of my knowledge there are no facts to substantiate this. When one flings crap, they should expect some to fling crap back.

Claybuster raises a good point, how would all you that feel the helmet is essintial to riding found them banned or full faces outlawed cause the politicos got a hair up their ass and said they restrict vision and are unsafe? Bet you would be howling real loud about the infrigment on your right to choose then yes? If bikers ever quit being so fractured on so many issues we actually might be heard by those who govern, be it helmets, cars that kill us and the drivers say " I did'nt see him" and are let go, to being banned from parks and communities.

Most bikers are there own worst enemies, instead of being united for all to choose what they wear, where they ride or not be treated in a discrimanatory manner (health care anyone) they take the approach of
being segmented into all their little groups and everyones rights get trampled.

Java

01-14-2005, 09:44 PM

Oldtimer;
I think we actually agree with each other here. When the pro-helmet law crowd pulls out that "burden to society" arguement, it just makes me laugh.
There are scores of legitimate reasons why I choose to always wear a helmet. For some, feeling the wind in their hair is enough reason to choose not to wear one. I am fine with that. I really am. I'll help fight for their right to make that choice. All I'm saying is, I think it's wrong to tell someone that's just starting out, that it's safer to not wear one. I mean, are there really any thinking people out there that actually believe that? I'm not talking about reading whatever we want to hear from a pile of statistics. After 26 years of gravel thrown up by trucks, tumbling down racetracks, having ball bearings dropped from overpasses, riding in the rain, and in the middle of the night, blindly running into a swarm of locusts so thick we were hydoplaning on them at 80 mph, no phd in a suit with a pile of statistics is going to convince me that I'd have been safer, or more comfortable, without a full face helmet. The only exception to that rule I can remember, was an old friend that would have been safer one night coming home from a party, if he had gotten sick without the helmet on! :roll:

Derick

01-15-2005, 11:03 PM

Bobthearch

01-15-2005, 11:45 PM

"...or is it just a matter of being told what to do."

I think that's mostly it, combined with an 'individualistic' need to be contrary. Personally their choice doesn't bother me until I start hearing the stupid crap like, "helmets cost lives," or "helmet laws are ruining the local economy." :roll:

-Bob

BanditnDan

01-17-2005, 11:42 PM

I understand that seat belts are designed to protect Person A from Person B, however wouldnt helmets be doing the same? For example, if someone blows a stoplight, and plows into a motorcyclist, wouldnt that helmet, as manated by state law, be protecting the motorcyclist from even more harm than if he/she had not been wearing a helmet? Same theory goes for seat belts.....

Yea, it'll make it easier to pick up the parts. A helmet will do little good in the scenario you describe, I believe the car will impact the riders legs thru chest area and then probably run over him to boot. If you survive with the helmet on, enjoy the quality of life taht is left......... A good example is Janklow, don't believe that dude survived the stop sign runner. Why don't you just admit it, even tho you say you won't preach to anyone, you are doing your damndest to make sure that helmets is shown as the better/only way to go.. I am not debating that helmets offer better protection,just simply trying to answer your question as to why one rides without, it is because we CHOOSE to. And it should be our right to choose, whether it offers less protection or not.

Also seat belts are not a save all either, recent story, drunk blew thru light, plowed into side of car, killed child who was in saftey seat and in back seat on passenger side. Maybe we should mandate the child seat only on the drivers side, would have saved the kids life. This rationale is only brought up to counter how hollow yours is also.

Derick

01-18-2005, 12:05 AM

I'm just simply trying to understand all angles of an argument. If thats the case, then that's the case, no worries.

subvetSSN606

01-18-2005, 01:21 AM

The thing with helmet arguments is that people try to distill it down to one aspect or another, and it can't be done.

If you look at pure safety, there's little argument.
If you look at pure freedom, there's little argument.

And there's other factors as well... comfort, claustraphobia... whatever...

The bottom line is that we all weigh the different factors for ourselves and come up with our own decision on what is best for us. IMO we should be able to also accept how others have done that analysis and come up with their decisions. As has been said, do you REALLY want someone who has never ridden a bike deciding whether or not riding a bike is an "acceptable" risk in our society? So what right do us helmeted riders have to say that riding without a helmet is an "unacceptable" risk?

I do get uptight about the BS slung from both sides of this. Don't try to make stuff up, just tell it like it is.
"I feel safer in a helmet" -OK Cool!
"I love the feeling of freedom with the wind blowing through my hair." -OK Cool!
"I'd feel better with a helmet, but I'm claustrophobic." -OK Cool!
"I've tried wearing a helmet, but they're just too uncomfortable." -OK Cool!

"I don't care what you do with your head, want to go for a ride?" -OK Cool!

Tom

Java

01-18-2005, 08:55 AM

Amen, Tom.
Ridng without a helmet is an unacceptable risk, for me.
For some, it is not.
When any aspect of motorcycling is under fire from a bunch of suits who don't ride, and therefore have no idea what they're doing, I think we as motorcyclists have to stick together. I'll stand with the ABATE crowd, and do my part to help keep these laws off the books. Thats why it bothers me so much when they use arguements I disagree with, because I'm standing with them. I do this for two reasons; One, I believe they should have the right to choose, even though it really doesn't affect me. And two, when some senator gets a bug up his rear about banning bikes over 100hp, I expect them to stand with me, even though that wouldn't really affect them.

Allan

01-19-2005, 10:31 AM

Might as well get this issue out of the way.

Im all for freedom of choice. I choose to wear my seatbelt because I feel its the best choice. I choose to wear my helmet (asside from if im troubleshooting something I need to listen and im jsut rideing up and down the backlot of my apartment) any time im on the road. However I feel that helmetless riders shoudl pay a higher premium on there insurance, because I dont feel like paying for there choice to be unsafe. How would this be done? Just like when the ask you if you keep your bike in a garage for when they are figureing out chances of theft. There will be a question for states without helmet laws, do you ride with a DOT approved helmet yes/no. If you say no, you pay a higher premium on your insurance. If you say yes you pay a lower premium, however if you say yes and are involved in a accident without a helmet you cannot file a claim. Im sure threre are holes in this stragity. But that is my oppinion and im sticking to it.

Ok that is it. I've gotten that out there. Time to move on.

Just an FYI, I wear a FF helmet, jacket, and gloves all the time. Yes i'll wear jeans for around town. If im on the highway I get out my rideing pants. I still wear hikeing boots. But this season im going to pick up some boots and Draggin Jeans.

Like maney other I was really gladd I had a FF with my shield down when a decent size rock hit me square in the middle of the shield. Definatly startled me, but no injury to myself. My face shield that is another story.

MarcS

02-12-2005, 10:03 PM

I took a load of bird poop in the face today at 80mph. Thank God for my full face helmet. :)

Logan

02-12-2005, 10:34 PM

karpsymoto

02-13-2005, 07:31 AM

I agree it's about risk tolerance. Go to your local hospital Rehabilitation unit and see the results of not wearing a helmet. While you may think it'll never happen to you, the lifelong consequences of a moment can be devastating to you and your loved ones. It's even a moment that could occur as a result of something that was for the most part outside of our control (someone hitting you at a red light).

IMHO we should control what we can. I alone make the choice to wear the helmet (laws or no laws) to reduce the risk of major injury, just as I make the choice to wear my seatbelt in the cage.

Would I like the feeling of freedom to be w/o the helmet...you bet, but the risks to me for me out weigh the comfort and feelings of freedom. I choose the helmet and so will any passengers I allow to ride with me.

Mer

02-13-2005, 08:05 AM

When I had a bird (or something) hit me and splatter blood and guts all over my helmet and jacket I was VERY happy to be wearing full gear. BTW, it took me about 30 minutes to clean all that crap off my gear. GROSS!!

RockyMtnRoadRash

02-13-2005, 10:41 AM

However I feel that helmetless riders shoudl pay a higher premium on there insurance, because I dont feel like paying for there choice to be unsafe. How would this be done? Just like when the ask you if you keep your bike in a garage for when they are figureing out chances of theft.

USAA asked me flat out, early in the process to get insurance, "Do you ride with a helmet?" So it seems some companies are thinking along those lines.

I wear a full-face (with sweet retro-reflective flames) because I do highway commuting at 75-80 (Clair says 90) mph on a naked bike, and that wind'll peel the face off your skull. Other people's setups will work better for them.

Reckless riders concern me far, far more than helmetless ones.

Also, I'm very handsome, my mommy told me so, so I wouldn't want to mess with my good looks. :P

SabreScott

02-13-2005, 09:01 PM

It's too bad some folks just don't use common sense. I'm all for freedom of choice. I wouldn't ride without a helmet and proper protective gear. That's my choice. Hopefully others that display less common sense will eventually get the message from my actions and not become a statistic due to their poor judgement. I'm just an independant, redneck, maverick Texan and that's just the way I see it :)

EAGERRICK

02-14-2005, 04:39 AM

Subvet,,,well put..We had a problem on the old site that I haven't seen to much of on this one.I like to read others opinions,,thats how you get to know them.But the name calling,telling someone their stupid or ajerk for not wearing a helmet went way to far on the old site.Here I have read lots of opinions and really have to agree with most of them.I don't wear a helmet most of the time,but thats what I am comfortable with,,,but I am going next week to buy a new fullface,,my wife said so,,lol,,,,,,,.If your not comfortable your not riding safe,you have to give 100% on your surroundings and what you are doing,,and thats all I got to say about that,,,Lets Ride

MtnMan

02-14-2005, 09:09 AM

I want to say I agree with the "Choice" post's I have seen here. I personally wear a FF, but I could care less if somone else does not, I do not concern myself with the gear a rider is wearing unless they are on my bike. The last thing I want to see is more helmet laws, even though I choose to wear a helmet , some day I may not and I want that right. I think seatbelt laws are lame as well. Next there will be laws telling us what kind of clothes to wear when we go camping, what kind of gear to wear when we swim, and who knows your bedroom "apparrel" might be next.
Also I get tired of the "helmet laws save $$ on insurance" BS. Thats propaganda served up by national insurance companies, they are businesses, they strive to increase profit margins just like any other company if everyone in America was forced to wear a helmet, it would probably save the INS companies alot of money, but do you really think your premiums would get a cost reduction? Hell no. Laws do not save money, they cost money, someone has to enforce the law, we have to have judges and juries, and jails for offenders. Laws cost money by increasing the burden on tax revenue they do not save it.